argument 142 红肉, 铁, 心脏病 咋批 啊,bow了

youifUID: 200073

Argument 142The article entitled 'Eating Iron' in last month's issue of Eating for Health reported that a recent study found a correlation between high levels of iron in the diet and an increased risk of heart disease. Further, it is well established that there is a link between large amounts of red meat in the diet and heart disease, and red meat is high in iron. On the basis of the study and the well-established link between red meat and heart disease, we can conclude that the correlation between high iron levels and heart disease, then, is most probably a function of the correlation between red meat and heart disease.
吸收.
Study , other element

GrowlywolfUID: 200584

记得以前有大虾说过，红肉和心脏病之间的关系是不能否定的，因为题干明确表明well-established。
所以
red meat引起心脏病----> red meat里面还有大量的铁-------> 高铁引起心脏病
破绽就在后面两个推论上面：
红肉含铁高，是不是就高到了能够致病的程度？
红肉里面有没有其他成分引起心脏病？

weinUID: 190374

楼上分析不全.我觉得是这样:
红肉导致病--------->肉含铁高---|
  -------------------------------------------------|==> 铁导致病.
研究发现,铁跟病有关系---------|

所以批驳点:
1. 谁说铁跟病一定有关系了？调查有问题。
2. 肉还含有好多别的呢，干嘛非得是铁啊？

找不出第三点了。sigh..:(

风生水起UID: 173663

I am so sorry to say that for some flaws in the argu ,the conclusion in the argu seems no believeable.In the article ,the arguer use a assume which i think is wrong ,and the study maybe can not support the connclusion.

The assume is that heart disesae is only related to the iron level .Without this assume ,arguer can not get the conclusion that the correlation between high iron levels and herats diease is most probably a function oof the correl;ation between red met and heart disease. But the other matirals in the red meat may also lead to heart diease for axample .,greese.As we all know ,red meat also contain mush greese.If a man neat too much greese,even if he eat no iron ,he may also have a high rate to having heart diease.And  some matiral  may low the rate of heart diease.if two men eat the same iron ,one 's diet just have the matrial which just lead to heart diease and the other 's diet contains some matial which low the rate of heart diease,I think these may lead different rate of heart diease.

And the study is also doubted .how they conclude the found .heart diease may appear after a long time . How they get enough statistics?and how can they conclude the reason ,because for such a long time ,they can not record all the conditions .Whether they just concern which diet they eat most .If so ,I can not think the statistics is correct,first for they can not recall everything ,he may neglect the die whhen he is young,secondly ,after they have heart diease ,many diet are forbitted for them and that may lead to a wrong racall.they may want to eat red meat so that they recall red meat more.  even if they get enough and correct statistics.heart diease may related to other factors. heart diease may ralated to living conditions of .For axample a person who eat too much red meat may have a bad living which will make him have a high rate of having heart diease

I can not think the conclusion that the arguer get is right for his wrong assume .I think he will pay more attention when he get conclusion next time.


这是我前几天写得，作者那个结论太荒谬了，肯定要攻击。再就是调查要攻击一下

neverflyUID: 166610

全部是推理错误。这种题目好像没什么发挥的余地，找点推理错误的模版套
as wein said

1. 谁说铁跟病一定有关系了？调查有问题。
2. 肉还含有好多别的呢，干嘛非得是铁啊？

another:
3. 其他含铁的物质有好多，为什么光说红肉

鬼谷子UID: 159645

https://bbs.gter.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=252650
arhoo等的分析


https://bbs.gter.net/showthre ... 15&pagenumber=3
lakeqian等的分析

我的分析：
高铁和心脏病的关系是由红肉和心脏病的关系决定的
那么通过and red meat is high in iron是否把两个correlation连在一起了呢？
那么是否可以理解是AB的关系由CB的关系决定，而A属于C，那么CB的关系就可以决定AB的关系，也就是说，如果CB成立，AB就能成立了呢？
那么AC的关系是用is来链接的，客观事实，不能驳斥
而我们可以把CB看成是前提，AB是结论
那么这道题应该不难解决
可以否定CB的关系这个前提，也可以否定CB与AB之间的“function"不存在，或者否定AB
我觉得function不是唯一的驳斥点，而题目也不至于那么变态，唯一不能驳斥的我觉得不是well-established的那个，而是and red meat is high in iron这句。

weinUID: 190374

综合了以前的讨论，这是我的理解，重点是＂function＂搞的大家好象明知不对，却不知道怎么说．一句话把你噎死那种感觉．

题目推理：　红肉跟病有关系　＋　红肉含高铁
+ 调查证明高铁跟病有关系　＝＞　高铁跟病有关系是红肉引起的．

攻击：
（１）可能是别的东东决定红肉与病的关系，跟铁make no sense.
（２）就算有sense, 也可能铁跟别的东东相作用才导致病．仅高铁并不能导致病．
（３）调查结论可能是错误的．没有考虑到其它因素．（间接支持１，２，这两种情况都有可能）．
（４）就算高铁能导致病，而且调查结果也正确，也不能说因为红肉与病有关系所以高铁跟病有关系．含高铁的东东多着能，可能它们也能导致病．调查的结果可能正说明这点：调查里并没有说高铁导致病都是因为吃红肉吃多了．相反，更可能的是：高铁导致病＋红肉含高铁＝＞红肉导致病．（把作者的结论反过来）；

In sum, 作者结论是错误的．他必须给出理由证明只有红肉里的高铁才能导致病．

另外，我觉得说＂红肉里的铁是否高到能致病？＂这个攻击无效，因为人家说了＂large amounts of red meat in the diet and heart disease＂，吃了＂large amounts of＂肉才导致病的．

真ＴＮＮＤ的绕啊．

weinUID: 190374

其实，大家都觉得作者的结论应该反过来才合理，那就死抓住这点做反驳就可以了啊。

反驳：
高铁可能跟病没关系。就算有关系，作者也很可能把因果关系搞反了。
（1）调查的结果可能是错误的，铁可能跟病根本没关系。
（2）就算有关系，调查也没有说这些高铁导致病的高铁都是来至于红肉的。
（3）红肉导致病，并不一定是高铁，可能是别的原因。
（4）其它物质也可能含高铁并且导致病。