issue36 义无返顾小组第20次作业

yuviUID: 2169411

另外给大家提个建议:

改文章用红笔标出记号,还有下次记得先给出文章的提纲,便于修改的同学把握写作者的思维哈~~:)

ylwangUID: 2191211

ylwang-->glxing

提纲：
1， 在科学界确实需要后人评价
2，然er，商业领域的成功很容易被同时代的人所认可
3，还有艺术领域



TOPIC: ISSUE36 - "The greatness of individuals can be decided only by those who live after them, not by their contemporaries."
TIME: 0:42:05          DATE: 2006-6-8

Can the greatness of individuals be recognised only in retrospect,by those who live after the person(persons, 与individuals对应), as the author says? In my view, the author's generalization is some what(somewhat) unreasonable. In the realm of science, particularly the physical science, greatness must be tested over time rather than (by) scientists' contemporaries. However, in some other areas, the authos's(author's) principle does not work.

(最好加上一个特征词，admittedly或者其他)In the realm of science, it is hard to identify greatness of some scientists without the help of historical perspective,  as  we human being are developing and some new theory would update or replace the existing ones. One modern example is the development of physics. The wave theory had proved that Newton's classical theory was wrong in some respects, which was seemingly faultless before. However, the appearence of quantum theory also made people recognize that the wave theory was not perfect as well. Now a new so-called "string" theory claims that it can replace the two contrary theories and solve more problems. Only time will tell whether the string theory can indeed provides the unifying laws. In a word, the importance of scientists can not be evaluated by their contemporaries but by scientists who follow them.

However, in the realm of business, in some cases great achievements can be recognized immediately. Bill Gates is an example in point. After the DOS operating system have(had,过去之过去用过去完成时吧) been developed, the appliance of computer began to be popular. And when the Windows operating system is availabe, its convenience has made the computer become one necessary tool in our daily life. All of these changes can be recognized by Gates' contemporaries. Of course, the Windows system might become historical relics eventually, yet the contributions of Bill Gates to IT indusrtry and even the American economy proves his greatness.(这句话好像比较多余，因为论点是能当时就得到广泛承认，而这句话说的是尽管windows终将被淘汰，bill gates还是有巨大贡献的，我认为没有对准论点开枪)

Moreover, when we look at the field of arts, we would find that we may not need historical perspects to recognize one artist's greatness. In Italian Renaissance, there were three major art figures: Da Vinci, Raffaello, and Michelangelo. Their talents in art and greatness in the art field(Their talents and greatness in art) already got enough recognization at that time.(建议加上一些具体的描述，他们的哪些作品如何受当时人的喜欢，否则论证显得有点空洞) Although there was artist like Van Gogh who did not wait for his reputation, most figures, whether in music, painting and literature, can get a reasonable evaluaton by their contemporaries.(这句话最好去掉，说Van Gogh的作品能得到同代人的评估，并不能支持论点作品能被同代人认可，评估的结果可以是坏的吧)

In sum, although in some fields like science, it is better to evaluate the greatness of indivuduals by scientists following them, the speaker overlooks many great individuals, especially in the fields of business and art, whose  achievements have already been recognized as great during their own time.


总结
1。本文论证还是比较清晰的，分成科学界和其他领域来分别表述，个人感觉基本要求达到了。
2。然而，在三个论证段中，每段都是中心局+例子的模式，尤其是后两段，如果能在举例后面加上一些对现象背后本质的深层次剖析就更好了，摆事实+讲道理 嘛，还有就就是例子和对例子的解释要更加对准论点有的放矢。
3。开头金额结尾都不错，如果能有一些精彩的句式就更好啦~
4。用词上缺乏变化，如greatness,recognize,contemporary出现了好多次，能否用一些近义词代替。

[ 本帖最后由 ylwang 于 2006-6-9 15:28 编辑 ]

lazyfishUID: 2220033

lazyfish ---> yuvi

Can the greatness of individuals decided by people who live after them, or by their contemporaries? I do not side to agree neither generalizes（你说作者的两个观点你哪个也不同意，但作者只说了前者，后者是你自己说的啊） maintained by the speaker. Not only because the greatness of individuals could be a subjective decision in different ages, but also, it depends on people's own culture backgrounds and their different value systems.

There are some realms, such as sciences and arts, the individuals involved in the realms (in which the individuals involved) are likely to be decided after a long age rather than in their contemporaries. I think it might be cost(没有be) a long time to renew the information of a science area, and also might cost time to examine it. Take the Heliocentrism theory for example, while Copernicus first pointed out that (the) Earth is not the center of (the) whole universe, which totally conflicted with the religion system of Western world at that time. However, time pasts (passes) and people finally acknowledge that the Helicocentrism is for somehow not wholly wrong at the time. It happens in the realm of arts as well. In the area of arts, it usually needs time to show a (the) greatness of an individual painter's idea of the (his) arts work. For instance, most people did not accept Picasso’s painting-style in his later age. And most of them cannot understand the ideas pass (expressed) from the painting. Nevertheless, as we all know, Picasso's works now have had (achieved) the greatest success in the painting area. In short, in the realms of nature sciences and arts, the greatness of individuals might be decide (decided) by people who live after them, because the works usually take more time in purpose to be examined, accepted, or understood.(觉得这句话的逻辑有点不够严密，你本段开头主题句说的是in some realms，individuals很有可能被后人decided而不是同时代人，而科学和艺术领域只是两个例子；但结尾的总结说“In short, in the realms of nature sciences and arts, the greatness of individuals……”，给人感觉你只认为这两个领域是可以由后人评判的。另外最后because那句话不太明白，作为主题句的理由不太充分)
By contrast (in contrast), in the realms of business or newly technology, the greatness of individuals is more likely to be deciding by the society immediately. The reason that (why) I contend this claim is because the achievements of those people usually exist in nowadays and easier to see the greatness in contemporaneity.(后半句的主语是achievements，和easier to see the greatness in contemporaneity搭配不上) For example, most people in today's world see that（没有that） Bill Gates as the most successful person in both business and technology areas. Gates shows his greatness for the contemporaries in the area of the technology development, and maintains his achievements sharply in several years. By lifting the American economic (economy) in 1970s, Gates' status of the economical and technological leader in American, which cannot be deny in anyway.(这句话的谓语动词是哪个？) Therefore, in the case here, Bill Gates' success for (to) some extents benefits today's world much more than it could bring for the age after. And that is why contemporaries could identify his greatness.(还是逻辑，你的主题句的意思是因为achievements在当今存在、greatness更容易看出来；结尾说是因为Bill Gates对当今的贡献多于对未来所以同时代的人可以评价人的伟大)
However, the identification of greatness is (去掉is) depends on the reorganization of every single individual. The culture backgrounds and value systems might be involved in the decision in the identify（这是动词，可改为identifying/identification） progress of the greatness. As most people known (know) in today's world, Japan is one of the initiate (这是动词，可改为one of the three core countries to initiate ) country in the World War Two. By distort (ing) of the history of the World War Two in school's textbook, Japanese government is publicizing the behaviors of the warmongers in the war. Even there are many denouncements coming from different medium systems, from a Japanese visual angle, such warmongers were been (had been/were) identified as the greatness of their society. This example tells us that the greatness of individuals is not only deicide(d) by different ages, but it also makes huge discrepancy between different culture backgrounds and divergent value systems.

In sum, the achievements of individuals might be seen different from ages, especially in the realms of arts and sciences. However, there are many great individuals could be identified by the people in the same age as well. Moreover, the difference between culture backgrounds and value systems is also an issue needs (needed) to be considering (considered) in the way to identify the greatness of individuals in contemporaneity.(为虾米要有contemporaneity呢，后人评判的时候不是也有文化和价值观念的因素吗)

不好意思没给人改过作文不知道是不是这样改，貌似挑了一大堆语法问题= =作者文章结构很清晰，topic sentences阿，例子阿，每段小结阿都挺完整的，最后summary也清楚明了~但是阿，感觉上小小的语法瑕疵比较多，不知道在gre作文里会不会影响成绩。恩……不知道还要说什么了……作者愿意的话可以再跟我交流~

另外还有点疑问，我看范文上分成了科学、艺术、经济三个领域论证，有的人也是这么写的，但是其实每个领域都有不同的情况阿，不能简单地说科学领域就是需要后人来验证、艺术领域同时代人就能看出伟大来……这样写的话会不会被认为是以个案来推知整体的逻辑不严密呢？gre作文最重要的是什么我还把握得不好，是语言漂亮能举出合理理由并举例阐述就可以了；还是一定要求逻辑上也要完善、不能像argu题目那样有漏洞，而语言是次要的呢？

本人新手，欢迎大家多多交流指正~

[ 本帖最后由 lazyfish 于 2006-6-9 15:16 编辑 ]

susan8940UID: 160449

Can the greatness of individuals be recognised only in retrospect,by those who live after the person, as the author says? In my view, the author's generalization is some what(somewhat) unreasonable. In the realm of science, particularly the physical science, greatness must be tested over time(加by those who live after the scientist) rather than scientists' contemporaries. However, in some(去掉) other areas, the authos's principle does not work.

In the realm of science, it is hard to identify greatness of some scientists without the help of historical perspective(这半句不太懂..可否改成hard to...scientists just by persons of the same time),  as  we human being are developing and some new theory would update or replace the existing(former) ones.(这里是不是可以加句therefore, someone who was thought to be really great before may not seem to be really that great.) One modern example is the development of physics. The wave theory had proved that Newton's classical theory was wrong in some respects, which was seemingly faultless before. However, the appearence of quantum theory also made people recognize that the wave theory was not perfect as well. Now a new so-called "string" theory claims that it can replace the two contrary theories and solve more problems. Only time will tell whether the string theory can indeed provides(provide) the unifying laws. In a word, the importance of scientists can not be evaluated by their contemporaries but by scientists who follow them.(这段感觉是在讲,在科学领域,只有时间才能证明一个理论是不是对的,可以多强调下greatness of scientists,证明以前认为伟大的不一定伟大,一定要交由后人判断)

However, in the realm of business, in some cases great achievements can be recognized immediately. Bill Gates is an example in point. After the DOS operating system have(has) been developed, the appliance of computer began to be popular. And when the Windows operating system is availabe, its convenience has made the computer become one necessary tool(or commodity) in our daily life. All of these changes can be recognized by Gates' contemporaries. Of course, the Windows system might become historical relics eventually, yet the contributions of Bill Gates to IT indusrtry and even the American economy proves(prove) his greatness(,which need not wait to be judged by afterworld).

Moreover, when we look at the field of arts, we would find that we may not need historical perspects to recognize one artist's greatness. In Italian Renaissance, there were three major art figures: Da Vinci, Raffaello, and Michelangelo. Their talents in art and greatness in the art field already got enough recognization at that time. Although there was artist like Van Gogh who did not wait for his reputation(win reputation when alive), most figures, whether in music, painting and literature, can get a reasonable evaluaton by their contemporaries.

In sum, although in some fields like science, it is better to evaluate the greatness of indivuduals by scientists following them, the speaker overlooks many great individuals, especially in the fields of business and art, whose  achievements have already been recognized as great(been considered to be great) during their own time.
个人意见,觉得在艺术领域,后人的评价更重要和客观.在科学领域成果如何反而更易被同辈人认可.比如牛顿,爱因斯坦都是在当时就被认为很伟大了.虽然有些理论以后可能被证明是错的,但他们对于科学的发展,人类文明的进步都是功不可没的,也都是伟大的.比如亚里士多德.
小蜗牛觉得呢?对aw不熟,提的不对的你就忽略吧:)

lionprinceUID: 2217595

大家相互进步,   哦我有个朋友作文考了5.5 我问他要了最接近考试风格的习作那出来了,
希望大家能参考以下, 我觉得他写的简单在里, 用词一般, 句型简单但是多变 等会我贴出来, 希望他能谅解呵呵!!!

lionprinceUID: 2217595

芹菜mm说的对, 我的ts写的不是太好, 老想用ts包罗万象,   这样写的后面不太好展开, 比如我的body2 实在想不出来例子, 好象只能用假设, 说light bulb 在n年以后人们认为它如此简单, 不能归为伟大的发明,    其实在哪个时候是很麻烦制造的， 而且 illuminate the world ???????

glxingUID: 2156425

小蜗牛先谢谢楼上两位给我的修改哈。
下面是给lazyfish改的

Under most of the circumstances, it does involve risks to judge people, no matter which period those people live in. Human nature decides that people can not escape from ideological bias, civilizations’ gaps, and logical difference, then saying only those who live after certain individuals can decide their greatness seems a little extreme, however fairly speaking it is harder for the contemporaries to see one’s greatness easily.开头似乎不太清晰，绕来绕去的

To decide whether one is great or not is like to plant a mysterious seed in the spring, if people want to know what fruit it can produce, they have to wait till the autumn harvest. People can argue, can analyze, and can predicate, but the only one who will unveil the truth is time. When Martin Luther nailed his protest against Catholic doctrine to door of Wittenberg Cathedral, when John Calvin spelled out his doctrine in that Latin tome, in the Rome Catholics dominated Germany and Geneva, most people thought they had anything but greatness. However after nearly half a millennia, the fruit of their greatness has grown into unprecedented prosperity.这一段是在说时间才能检验伟大与否，写的可以，但是John Calvin那句话写得过于复杂

Great people have greater thoughts, just like no one like the smartest student in the class; it is hard for great minds to fit into a society filled with average brains. On the other hand, people who live in different period of time have the tolerance to accept and admire their outstanding. Balzac who are considered as one of the greatest writer in the history and idolized by people around the world wrote at his time to fill his stomach and had never earned public respect until death falling upon him; Leonardo da Vinci lived as a loner for most of his lifetime, and many artists earned reputation even hundreds years after their death.呵呵，我的例子中就说达芬奇赢得当代人的尊敬，呵呵，没关系，只要自圆其说就行 Maybe the writer whose works are not worthy of wasting time to read, the politician whose idea we think too idealistic to be taken seriously, or the musician whose music we consider too strange to enjoy, will one day become the dominant in their field.

Contemporary people are more prone to be blinded by the instant benefits, then unable to see things in a historical perspective. Like Joseph Stalin, he used to be insanely loved by people in the communism world, because he saved people out of the war, he helped Russia get independence and amount to the top two super powers, then people ignored his dictatorship and violation of people’s liberty. So it is necessary for people to stand out of the scenery in order to gain a complete and real view of the picture.分析当代人容易判断失误，例子很好。但是，你在这段的开头与上一段没有任何衔接词，这个不好

However, just as Eugene O’Neil once said: “There is no presence or future. Only the past happening over and over again, now.”, some values don’t change over time, and someone’s greatness does benefit generations. It is difficult for me to imagine that one day Thomas Edison will be blamed for inventing electricity and Bill Gates will be judge as evil for establishing Microsoft, and someone will think people living at the same period mis-regarded their greatness. 这一段是在说什么呢？有些人的伟大可以被当代人评价么？可是最后一句似乎自相矛盾啊。还有例子没有很好的展开

To sum up, I can just partly agree with the statement, and strongly believe that we should give it a second prudent thought when we make a judgement.看完你的文章才知道什么叫例子翔实，呵呵。不过，你最大的不足是全文的结构不够清晰，段与段之间的衔接不够。

coxleeUID: 2197149

coxlee ---> jiqixueyuan
一起加油~~~~~~~~~~~

Can the greatness of individuals be decided only by those who live after them, not by their contemporaries. (倒装句还是疑问句？应该为？吧，倒装表示强调)In my view, not all greatness of persons are recognized by those persons living after them, and more and more persons' greatness will be recognized by their  contemporaries, along with improvement of people's level of though (level of thought? 郁闷的是google了一下level of though,发现了一堆这样的用法。。。). (第一段直接提出观点，不错)

Firstly, many persons' greatness can often be recognized by those persons who live after them to some extent because of their palmary talent and intelligence which ordinary people do not own.(伟大能被后人发现是因为他们具有常人所不具有的天才？从后文看应该是他们的成就在同时代体现不出来/与主流思潮冲突而被压制。TS似乎有点不恰当，jiqixueyuan 认为呢？)For example, Halley, who found  Halley comet, foretold that the comet which appeared in 1682 was periodical and it would return after 76 years in 1758. However, his greatness was not recognized until fifteen years after he (his? 或者干脆 later算了) passing away.  When Darwin published his famous research results "Origin of Species" (书名应该是 On the origin of species, ), the book encountered lots of controversies from the members of the religious community, as well as some scientific peers, who stubbornly held their belief that each organism and each adaptation were the work of the creator, and were outraged about Darwin's ideas. Eventually his theory of evolution defeated the traditional belief, and now is reverenced(known?) as one of the greatest intellectual revolutions in human history. (这段例子举的哈雷Halley和达尔文 Darwin 的例子都很恰当，而且也很切题，再展开一下就更好了，比偶写得那篇好多了)

Secondly, although some persons' greatness can not be decided by their contemporaries, individuals' greatness were recognized by their contemporaries ever happened in history. Considering on the one hand Chairman Mao in China. Chairman Mao built a new china in 1949 after a cruel war between China and Japan, and eventually made China with the greatest  populations in the whole world unified and peaceful, then almost every Chinese people viewed him as a savior. At that time, even Nixon also regarded him as one of the greatest presidents all over the word. On the other hand,  although Beethoven lost his hearing in 1801 and was deaf by 1819, his music, which formed(stimulated或start会不会好点?) a transition from classical to romantic composition, includeing 9 symphonies, 5 piano concertos, a violin concerto, 32 piano sonatas, several other sonatas, 2 Masses, and an opera ,was recognized(appreciated?) and glorified by his contemporaries. And he became the greatest composer of his day.(本段列举事实进行反驳，Mao和贝多芬的例子举的很切题)

Thirdly, the more developed the society are(is? Not sure), the quicker recognized  the greatness of individuals will be by their contemporaries. Because people's ideals(ideas?)  become more and more not restricted by  their contemporaries, and the communication from person to person is more and more effective. for example, in the scientific world…...(作者可能没时间了，这段略显单薄，我一向的看法是太单薄了还不如不要。其实可以从科学界，Nobel奖，艺术界，Oscar来展开，倒也不难。)

In sum, the greatness of some persons may be recognized after several years or even centuries by people who live after them while the greatness of other persons might be decided by their  contemporaries. Furthermore, there will be a trends that (it is possible that)删去? the greatness of individuals are going to be recognized immediately  by their contemporaries with the development of society. (总体思路很好，例子也不错，感觉再深入展开些,句子间衔接词多用些酒更好了。我列下作者提纲：部分赞成，部分反对；1. 某些伟人的成就由于各种原因不能被同时代人们所认识（Halley，Darwin）
2. 历史上也有很多伟人的成就被同时代人们发现(Mao, Beethoven)
3.随着社会的进步，伟大的成就被认可和传播的速度会越来越快。)

coxleeUID: 2197149

呵呵,谢谢lionprince的奉献~~~
大家共同提高太好了！

原帖由 lionprince 于 2006-6-9 18:28 发表
大家相互进步,   哦我有个朋友作文考了5.5 我问他要了最接近考试风格的习作那出来了,
希望大家能参考以下, 我觉得他写的简单在里, 用词一般, 句型简单但是多变 等会我贴出来, 希望他能谅解呵呵!!!

coxleeUID: 2197149

谢谢susan
我也觉得很有点跑题，可那天思维太局限了不知道从其他角度入手了

可不可以详细说下“强调下同时代的人对一个人伟大与否也有很大影响”？？我不是很理解这句话的意思，呵呵

原帖由 susan8940 于 2006-6-8 17:25 发表
不知对不对,但我感觉楼主是不是有点偏题啊
最好强调下同时代的人对一个人伟大与否也有很大影响.

even1985310UID: 2105390

even1985310 --->coxlee
Great individuals are highly respected in the society, the issue argues that the greatness of individuals can be decided only by those who live after them instead by their contemporaries. In my opinions, however, i think the conclusion is not the fact, greatness can be decided by anyone, it has nothing to do with the time staff.
（如果认为和是代无关，就可以多论述同时代的局限在哪，跨时代的局限又在那，而一个客观或全面的评价有既是同时代的也有跨时代的，这样和题目的时代性可能能连的更紧，而且如果从这个入手点评论的话，就要提出自己的观点？）

（如果主题句换成同时代的也可以正确评价一个人的GREATNESS可能更贴切）First of all, it is one's accomplishments or characters that make people think he/she is great. Considering our time as the case, Bill gates, one of the richest persons in the world, is decided a great man in many of my classmates. It is not only because he made a big fortune, but also because he helped to take the personal computer into every common family, because he lead Microsoft to bring many fantastic software to us, and because he held a special fund to conduct charity. With all of these achievements or characters, can't his contemporaries make the decision that he is a great individual? Considering another example in America, George Washington, who lead the American win the war with the England, probably were considered to be a great man by all of American at that time when he became the first president of the United States. Certainly, there are other examples, Chairman Mao in China, Churchill in the Great Britain..., whether individuals are great or not should be decided by their achievements or other personalities which have nothing to do with the time staff.（结尾应提出为什么这些人的事迹可被定义为GREATNESS，比如对社会有推动作用，是一种创新等）

（这段可以说是无论同时代还是跨时代都有的局限，可以作为你自己定义的第二个维度：无论跨时代或者后者，都要作到客观）Secondly, to judge one's greatness is rather subjective, maybe everyone has a different standard. I want to mention a story here that happened in my school. A very pretty girl got drowned and dead when saving a child's life in a river, this behavior brought a city-wide discussion, some people thought she was too stupid to lose her life, but i think she is a great girl, life is a short journey, she proved that her life is valuable with her bravery and kindness. But at the same time, i can understand those people who considered her behavior a silly act, because people grow up in different environments, come from different educational background and have different opinions on values. Whether individuals are great or not, everyone has his/her own idea, no matter contemporaries or those who live after those individuals.

（说明在评价任何一个事情是否GREATNESS 要考虑他的前提是什么）Finally, the society is changing, the mainstream standard for greatness is changing, so is the greatness of individuals. Great individuals of a period may not be great anymore in another period. For example, Shen He, a famous official in Chinese Qing dynasty, was considered a great person at his time, but as the emperor changed, he was found to conduct corruption and was thrown into prison. Whether individuals are great or not, every society has its different standards, no matter contemporary society or future societies.

In sum, the greatness of individuals should be decided with their accomplishments or personalities, and different persons and societies have different standards. People who make the decision shouldn't be restricted to contemporaries or those who live after them.
总结：文章立意具有批判性，但是思路和题目没有表现很强的关联，各自然段之间联系不够紧凑。所以无法很清晰的得出作者关于GREATNESS 和时代之间的关联

coxleeUID: 2197149

希望大家写习作时先把提纲列出来，方便时间不多的组员浏览 ^_^像yuvi这样就方便我这懒人了

从提纲看，说艺术，科学现今人们就不能评价了？个人感觉分学科说不太好。第三点我提供几个例子，看合不合适
1. darwin 进化论，哥白尼日心说，和当时主流思潮相背
2. 希特勒，当时德国的英雄，其他国家的魔鬼

大家一起讨论哈

原帖由 yuvi 于 2006-6-8 21:52 发表
態度：中立
提綱：
1．        有不少需要後人評價的領域，如藝術，科學（eg: 畢加索，哥白尼）
2．        也有現今人們可以評價的領域，如商業，技術 （比爾蓋茨）
3．        決定一個人是否偉大同樣應該參考公衆所処的環境背景 ...