本帖最后由 archaeology 于 2009-5-7 21:53 编辑
closing statements
The moderator's closing remarks
Sep 17th 2008 | Mr Robert Lane Greene
It took three rounds, but we have now the clearest statements possible from Anne-Marie Slaughter and Dmitri Trenin on what to do about Russia. And we have discovered why they think differently. What you think about Russia's actions will determine whether you think the West must be "bolder".
Mr Trenin is now on the record: "the person who bears the bulk of responsibility for what happened in 2008 is Mikheil Saakashvili." He thinks Russia's response to the Georgian shelling on South Ossetia is not only parallel to, but more restrained than, America's attacks on Yugoslavia over Kosovo in 1999. So there is no reason to be bolder with Russia, because the behaviour of others is at the root of the August war. 应该负责的是格鲁吉亚总统萨卡什维利,而不是俄罗斯。
Ms Slaughter obviously disagrees, calling Russia's invasion of Georgia a "very disproportionate response" to Mr Saakashvili. So she clarifies what she thinks should be done, saying that she would "exercise every lever possible in the Russian business community, which very much wants to be integrated with the West, to make clear the costs of this kinds of activity—freezing assets, curbing travel for family members, [and] freezing invitations to international conferences... No one has explained why these won't work." Mr Trenin's response: "One can certainly get Putin even angrier at his Western critics, and one can probably succeed in turning some oligarchs into better Russian patriots, but I cannot see how this can help the Western cause."
Steven Blank, from the US Army War College, weighs in by laying an ugly charge-sheet(案情记录) at Russia's feet (including less-reported measures like threatening to send anti-air missiles to Iran). Given what he sees as hugely dangerous Russian behaviour, he says the Western response must be made of "sterner stuff". This would include offers of "a clear road to membership" in NATO for Ukraine and "other post-Soviet states". He says that Western countries should expose Russian influence-buying in European energy firms, and that Russia should be denied IPOs in European markets. That would be stern indeed, and certainly goes beyond what our main Pro-ponent(支持者), Ms Slaughter, suggests. A few commenters, among them Olya Naumova and ObservantW, are disturbed by Mr Blank's line of thinking.
David Axe, a freelance war correspondent, agrees in his guest commentary with Mr Trenin. Georgian behaviour, he writes, as well as the provocative NATO expansion to Russia's border, explains Russia's "paranoia": "Russia would have been foolish not to respond to this antagonism once threats and words had turned into artillery and gunfire" from Georgia. Like many commenters against the proposition, and indeed like Ms Slaughter, he thinks that the West must do a better job of understanding what Russia wants.
Comments have been fast and furious; the subject is obviously raising strong emotions out there. To the benefit of all, many of the commenters seem to be Russians themselves. Most comments have clearly pro- or con- positions. Several on both sides dust off the Hitler analogy, something that is strongly discouraged in all debates. (Neither Mr Saakashvili nor Mr Putin is Hitler, who was quite unique.) Perhaps one of the more pleasingly nuanced(微妙的) comments comes from Shulah, both kind and wary towards Russia: "Though the transition from a close-to-bankruptcy nation to an almost super-power has been a fantastic one, Mr Putin's Russia should have taken some time off and taken a leaf from(学某人的样子) China's rise to power."
Ms Slaughter seems to have won some voters to her side; as of this writing, the Pro position has turned a small deficit into a small lead. She writes more in sorrow than in anger, hoping to see "a Russia that is less chronically insecure about its joint status as a European and an Asian nation, and about its intellectual and cultural contributions to the world, beyond its natural resources." But she thinks there must be sticks as well as carrots to get it there. Mr Trenin, for his part, sees her suggestions as "plain ludicrous". They have had their final words, but final comments, and the final vote are yet to come.
The proposer's closing remarks
Sep 17th 2008 | Ms Anne-Marie Slaughter
Let me begin by agreeing with Varske, who offers the helpful clarification that the nature of this debate for many participants turns on "what you mean by bolder: bolder in the sense of stronger reactions rather than weaker, or bolder in the sense of more imaginative and/or creative to get out of the old stereotypes."
Dmitri Trenin and I both agree that "stronger reactions rather than weaker", in the sense of a military or even threatened military response; or pushing NATO even further; or moving in other ways to drive the West even closer to Russia's borders, would at this point be deeply counter-productive. The reason is most succinctly(简洁地) stated by LiveClear11, who writes: "The worst the West could do is to give the ultranationalists in Russia fodder(饲料) to suggest that a new cold war is imminent(即将发生的) and it's Russia against the world." That is exactly right, but that observation also points to the key element of disagreement between Mr Trenin and me.
Mr Trenin accuses me of the "stale" view that Russia is just up to(忙于,直到) its old imperialist tricks. Not so. I did not argue that Russia was imperialist as in tsarist days, but rather that it is an old Russian habit, as with many authoritarian governments, to manufacture an external threat to whip up(激起) nationalist sentiment as a way of distracting the population from domestic problems. Many of the commentators, including a number of Russian participants in the debate, agree with this proposition, noting the miserable quality of life for many ordinary Russians—see Alice in Wonderland's point that pensioners(领养老金者)lived better in Soviet times than they do today—and Marek in Moscow's point that even his very Westernised friends suddenly have a very nationalist reaction when talking about Russian honour and pride. 一直强调俄罗斯向来有 利用国外问题 激起民众爱国情绪从而把他们注意力从国内问题转移出来的传统。
That means that the West faces the following dilemma: How to respond to Russia's very disproportionate(不成比例的) response to Georgia's military action in South Ossetia in a way that will deter(威慑) further such military action in Ukraine or elsewhere in the "near abroad" but that will not inflame a nationalist reaction that would make it easier (or even create incentives) for the government to do just that? Here I return to my starting proposition: the West must have some response; it is not necessary to think that Putin is the reincarnation(化身,转世) of Hitler to realise that the absence of any response is likely to be seen as a sign of weakness or an indication that no consequences will follow further similar action. Here again, I, like the moderator, would ask Mr Trenin whether he is really proposing that the West do nothing?
So here let me be more specific, as our moderator requests. First, I would second(支持,赞同) Hillary Clinton's proposal that we establish an international commission to determine the precise facts of what happened on October 8th and in the days before and after. We should not presume to know those facts and we should give the Russian account of what happened a fair hearing. Second, as I suggested before, the EU and America should jointly designate a high-level envoy to Moscow to find out what Russia wants directly, rather than simply speculating. Third, however, I would exercise every lever possible in the Russian business community, which very much wants to be integrated with the West, to make clear the costs of this kind of activity—freezing assets, curbing travel for family members, freezing invitations to international conferences like the World Economic Forum. No one has explained why these won't work.
Fourth, however, as Walter Smart and others suggested, we must offer carrots as well as sticks, offering Russia a renewed diplomatic role with the EU and America in negotiations, not only with Iran but also with regard to renewed efforts to broker an Israeli-Palestinian settlement, now possibly including Syria. Holding out the possibility of a joint US-Russia non-proliferation(防止核武器扩散) initiative and EU-US-Russia free-trade talks, as Walter Smart suggests, are other possibilities. Overall, as Knowledgeseeker writes, the long-term goal must "be a more integrated Russia—economically and of course into the 'community of nations' where it is less likely to repeat these kinds of actions." I would add also: a Russia that is less chronically insecure about its joint status as a European and an Asian nation, and about its intellectual and cultural contributions to the world, beyond its natural resources.
The opposition's closing remarks Sep 17th 2008 | Mr Dmitri V. Trenin
I must apologise for apparently ignoring the invitation to discuss Ms Slaughter's sanctions at any length. Frankly, the reason I sought to avoid that was sheer embarrassment with the proposal.
Generally, I find the pro-sanctions talk to be ill-informed, emotional, short-sighted and, above all, cheap. As far as the measures proposed by Ms. Slaughter are concerned, I see them as plain ludicrous. Does Ms Slaughter propose, eg, a travel ban on President Medvedev, as the Russian commander-chief? Could the boycott also be extended to Mr Medvedev as a speaking partner, and if so, does the proposal mean to put the hot line(电话热线) between the White House and the Kremlin off-limits? Whom else would the smart sanctions target: Mr Putin? His ministers? (I skip the generals, who rarely travel abroad or talk to foreigners.) Does this mean that Ms Slaughter would seek to slash all official contacts between the governments of the West and the Russian government? This was never practiced even during the cold war. If she is thinking more about the oligarchs and corrupt officials, as softer targets, how would that hurt Messrs Medvedev and Putin, or influence their policies? One can certainly get Mr Putin even angrier with his Western critics, and one can probably succeed in turning some oligarchs into better Russian patriots, but I cannot see how this would help the Western cause. And if the Western law-enforcement agencies should have incriminating evidence against free-wheeling Russian tycoons, why not bring it up as a matter of course, rather than saving it for a politically opportune moment? I believe that this proposal, Ms Slaughter's only specific one, illustrates the lack of instruments to achieve the goal she has identified. There is a will, but no way. (where there is a will, there is a way)Unless, of course, someone would suggest kidnapping the Kremlin duo(二人组,二重唱)(指普京和梅德韦杰夫) and sending them to Guantánamo(臭名昭著的关塔那摩监狱)for re-education.
So far, I have seen my job as discussing the likely effectiveness of bolder Western reaction to Moscow's actions in the Caucasus. However, Mr Greene, the moderator, has urged me to discuss the Russian action itself. Let me be plain: I see it in terms broadly similar to the NATO action over then-Yugoslavia in 1999. With important new elements though: (a) while NATO troops went into action when Belgrade failed to respond to their governments' ultimatum, Russia was responding massively to a deadly attack against its peacekeepers, which was part of the Georgian onslaught on South Ossetia, which started the war; (2) NATO was saved from having to launch a land invasion, which would have occupied Serbia and ended the rule of Milosevic, only by the Russian-European diplomatic action, while Russia's invasion of Georgia proper has been limited; (3) whereas it took the West seven years to recognise Kosovo, Russia's recognition of Abkhazian and South Ossetian independence followed within two weeks of the end of hostilities. That said, I sympathise with the Georgian civilians who lost life, limb or property as part of what NATO used to call "collateral damage". I would not want to be in Gori in 2008, as I dreaded to be in Belgrade in 1999. The person for whom I had absolutely no sympathy in 1999 was Slobodan Milosevic. The person who bears the bulk of responsibility for what happened in 2008 is Mikheil Saakashvili.
My central criticism of the Russian government is that they had not managed to resolve the conflicts on Russia's borders. They probably thought that the "freeze" was offering them an instrument to put pressure on Georgia and make it impossible for it to join NATO or host American military bases. That was the only real interest that Russia had; it certainly felt no threat from the Rose revolution(玫瑰革命)—other than the chance that roses would eventually be used for welcoming American military personnel to the Caucasus. However, my much bigger problem is with the sloppiness, or worse, of the current US administration, which failed to prevent Saakashvili's fateful move on Tskhinval, or to cut it short once it started, and thus prevent the massive Russian counter-move. After the recent hearings in the US Senate and the House, one would hope that an investigation into the circumstances that led to the war would give an answer to the question whether this was, on behalf of(代表,为了) the Bush administration, an act of omission (which I hope) or commission. 玫瑰革命是2003年11月在格鲁吉亚发生的反对当时总统谢瓦尔德纳泽及其所领导政府的一系列示威活动,其领导人反对党领袖萨卡什维利每次公开露面都拿一枝玫瑰花,因此被称为玫瑰革命。最终,萨卡什维利领导的反对党获得了胜利,建立了民主选举的政府,其本人当选格鲁吉亚总统,而原格鲁吉亚总统谢瓦尔德纳泽辞职。在2004年03月28日进行的格鲁吉亚议会选举中,萨卡什维利总统领导的政党获得全部150个议席。
Finally, I must confess(承认,供认) I was very struck by the intense emotions evoked by the debate. I was also impressed by the reasonable closeness of the vote, which I take as a sign of the perceived seriousness of the issue, not the voters' indecisiveness. More than a couple of times, however, I have been startled by the complete triumph of emotions over reason, and of prejudice over rational judgment. That Russia is often misunderstood, and worst-case scenarios are at the top of many people's minds, is not particularly surprising, in view of the Soviet Union's history, the cold war and more ancient prejudices. "The Hun" lives on, only now he is known as the Russian bear. (Has anyone noticed that newspaper cartoons usually depict Russia as an animal, while other nations are represented by humans? A minor but interesting point.) What is more revealing, and also sad, is the proliferation of newly-closed minds, too long steeped perhaps in the rites of political correctness.
I have not set myself the task of suggesting ever smarter ways of getting at Russia. For those who yearn to see Russia punished, I will say: do not worry, the markets are doing it for you. For those who absolutely want to "do something", I will say, the steps that you take will haunt you as long way. This is not a good moment, but at some point the West, and in particular America, will need to recognise that its policies towards Russia were profoundly misguided, in the first post-Soviet decade, and mostly non-existent ever since. Russia matters, and there is a penalty for getting it wrong or neglecting it. That NATO expansion policies have now run into a wall(碰壁) is for all to see. There is no need to continue banging one's head against that wall. Instead, give a fresh look to European security, in the light of Kosovo and the Caucasus, and agree with Russia on the rules to live by; negotiate new strategic and conventional arms agreements in place of those already discarded (CFE) or about to expire (START); do not allow Iran to use the US-Russian confrontation to progress toward nuclear weapons; unfreeze the NATO-Russia cooperation on Afghanistan. And, above all, do not stand in the way of Russia's economic integration with the rest of the world. In the age of globalisation, any country's behaviour is best moderated by the forces of the market. Indeed, be bolder. Think out of the cold war icebox. |