☆☆四星级☆☆Economist Debate阅读写作分析----Assertive Russia

archaeologyUID: 2598252

decision

Mr Robert Lane Greene

Anne-Marie Slaughter has won a close and emotional debate, carrying the House on the proposition that "the West must be bolder in its response to a newly assertive Russia."

She and Dmitri Trenin began by agreeing that there was no new cold war, and that no such thing is desirable. But over the course of their exchanges, it emerged that Mr Trenin does not even believe that Russia is particularly badly behaved, no worse than NATO in any case. Ms Slaughter saw Russia's recent war in Georgia as a dangerous over-reaction to a regional irritant, and wanted to make clear to Russian elites that such things will not go ignored.

Ms Slaughter proposed targeted and cautious sanctions. A guest contributor, Steven Blank, wanted far harsher ones. Another guest, Marshall Goldman, agreed that "the West should certainly be bolder," but was at a loss（茫然，困惑） to suggest anything he thought might work. Edward Verona, the head of the US-Russia Business Council, fretted （烦恼）over the unintended consequences. This perhaps explains the closeness of the vote. Quite a lot of the "con" commenters also seemed to believe that Russia had been ill-behaved, but were not sure that any "bolder" cure, even Ms Slaughter's careful prescription, would be better than the disease. Sanctions are tricky things, made far trickier in this case by Western reliance on Russian energy.

Over 500 comments illustrated how provocative the question was. Many were not as polite as we like them to be. People have a hard time keeping to the Oxford format, addressing the moderator rather than each other. (This is not to aggrandise the moderator; it is intended to keep people on topic, and it makes it a little trickier to insult others.) But by and large（总的来说）, we can be pleased with a healthy and vigorous discussion.

One theme that kept coming up again and again was "understanding Russia". What does it want? Even Ms Slaughter wants to know, in order to make Russia feel more comfortable. Is it merely to get rich and keep some of the dignity due a great civilisation and nuclear former superpower? Or is it so aggressively nervous that it must actively dominate its neighbours? Answer that, and the question of whether the West should be bolder answers itself. About 52% of you, at least, feel reason for pessimism.

archaeologyUID: 2598252

comments from the floor

GEOPOLITICONOMIST wrote:
The U.S. is confrontational and greed driven by nature and very much a bull in a china shop（莽撞的人） in world affairs still stuck in（陷入）their antediluvian mind-set and warmongering mentality （心态）irrespective of（不论，不管） Russia's conciliatory（安抚的，调解的）stance. Russia should quickly close ranks with（与……紧密团结） the European Union and jointly oust the Americans from（驱逐出去）N.A.T.O


babuever wrote:
Russian Federation links to different worlds of North-East and Southern parts of the globe. As one of the super power it still counts in geo-politics and has large growth potential and supportive to the developing world aspirations at large. It can be assumed from Iran nuclear issue.It also has enough influence over Asia's India, South America's Brazil & other socialist bloc（联盟，集团） to vield enough power in global affairs. Through making thorough analysis over Russian pacts with these countries in particular hi-tech domains one can understand its importance in determining the trend for stability across the globe.

HARI ESWARAN wrote:
After my recent to St.Petersburg & understanding little more about Russia, I beleive over the Centuries Russia has been trying to assert its righful place & when they find that they are not given this position they become aggresive & the more they are pushed the more belligerent they become.Conclusion: Give them their place & they will live with the world on their terms & will give their citizens the good life they deserve.
应该给俄罗斯大国地位。

William Maxwell wrote:
Of course we need to define what we means by "bolder". We also need to accept that Russia is ill at ease with the undisciplined aspect of Western culture, and that it also very naturally wants to feel respected - recognition of Kosovo was a godsend making the current Ossetia situation a perfect response that also threatens Europe's oil and gas supplies. I'd say Russia has taken two tricks there.


RCookson wrote:
Russia? Russia has been the bane of the free world and should remain so. Except for some natural resources, Russia has exported death to its critics, identity theft, oligarchs that criminally control trade, and the sudden and criminally motivated nationalization of industry. What more need be said about Russia?


ApolinarioMabini wrote:
The West, meaning the United States and Europe, together have threated Russia with what they consider to be severe sanctions if Russia failed to get its military forces out of Georgia in accordance with the ceasefire brokered by French president Nicolas Sarkozy. But Russia, through Vladimir Putin and Dmitry Medvedev, has chosen to ignore the West's threats. Russian forces are still inside George, even now. What "bolder" measures can the West think of and if need be to carry out to get Russia to behave? Is the West ready to tell Russia that "military action is not off the table（离开谈判桌） as Commander-in-Chief George W. Bush is wont（习惯） to do? I do not think that would be a wise move. The West should continue instead to talk to Vladimir Putin and Dmitri Medvedev. This is a time to use the full potential of diplomacy, not to threaten nations such as Russia with military action.


ivoryspine wrote:
I voted pro because I believe that the west still needs to help Russia become a responsible member of the family of nations. The way the leadership of that country behaves, both at political level and business environment level (Georgia and Yukos) is more totalitairanism with different means. Because the lack of trust in the Russian system few people feel they can make long term commitments there. The level of russian shares on western stock markets indicate that, I think.


raugal wrote:
Talking about boldness, in this part of the world we once again have the Russian Arctic Sea fleet calling port in the Caribbean (this time in Venezuela（委内瑞拉)), and such an outstanding example of self-restraining and good-mannerism as Mr. Chavez bluffing around with his newly acquired Sukhoi（苏霍伊） fighters. What's next?

苏霍伊

　　他是苏联最有成就的飞机设计师之一，是苏霍伊设计局的创始人。他担任总设计师达33年之久，一生共主持设计了50多种新飞机，其中34种进行了试飞，为苏联航空事业的发展作出了巨大的贡献。在图波列夫设计局期间，苏霍伊最有意义的工作是担任AHT-25型飞机的主任设计师。1937年6月，奇卡洛夫机组驾驶该机由莫斯科经北极飞到美国，在全世界引起轰动。正是这次成功的飞行使苏霍伊有幸于1939年7月成立了自己的设计局。新设计局在竞争中得到的第一个任务是设计近程轰炸机“伊万诺夫”。该机改进后命名为苏-2，在卫国战争中作为强击机和近程轰炸机参加了战斗。
虽然苏霍伊从1939年到1949年领导研发并制造、试验了15种以上的飞机，但由于各种原因，除苏-2外都没有实现批量生产。更让人痛心的是，1949年11月，苏霍伊设计局被解散。这时有人建议苏霍伊改行。苏霍伊在表示感谢后拒绝了。他说：“我不能想像没有航空自己的生活会是什么样子。” 20世纪50年代初，苏联为应对日益增大的空中核威胁，作出加快军用飞机研制工作的决议。苏霍伊设计局得以死而复生。该局再生之后，新研制的苏-7、苏-9、苏-11、苏-15和苏-17与20世纪40年代研制的同样名称的飞机实际上并不相同。苏-9是当时苏联国内速度最快、飞行高度最高的批量生产战斗机，在1959~1962年间曾创造一系列速度和高度世界纪录。苏-15作为苏联第3代战斗机的代表构成了20世纪七八十年代苏联防空军的基础，直到90年代初才被苏-27和米格-31所取代。
1969年秋，在苏霍伊倡议下，设计局开始了代号为T-10(即目前的苏-27)战斗机的设计工作。就在试验机即将投入生产之际，苏霍伊于1975年9月15日,带着遗憾与世长辞。

bunjo wrote:
Reading the article in the Sept. 18 issue of The Economist entitled "Russia's armed forces; Advancing blindly" I was informed that the Russian Armed Forces are outdated and there are many challenges to developing and modernizing it. What struck me the most was that Russian military spending one-twentieth of that of the United States. As we know, NATO is headed by the USA and is the strongest and most important military block on the globe today. The chart in the article does not show the military spending of other NATO nations but we can assume that the combined military spending of all other members is a larger fraction of American military spending. I we look at this issue in military terms, the West does not have to be bolder in response to this newly assertive Russia, all it should take is just one of the European powers (UK or any other critic of this new Russia). Looking at these figures, it seems that any such conflict would be very one-sided. (We should also take into account other Russian spending on security which is not disclosed to the public).From an economic point of view, the article mentions the recent economic troubles in Russia like the weakening of the stock markets and the lowering of the price of oil.We can see here that Russia might be assertive in protecting its citizens, but we can also see the hypocrisy（伪善） of the West. The largest military budgets outside the USA are in Europe. The military mismatch is very much in favour of West.On another note, even the independence of Kosovo was not recognized by all EU member states. This means that if the West claimed that it was united behind Kosovo, it did not really mean that. Maybe it is time for the West to leave this issue and concern itself with its own problems. We are back to a time when Russia/USSR（苏联） was the scapegoat（替罪羊） to all international problems. The West dominates the world and a lot of the global issues (greater than this one) are under its watch.

nemo2 wrote:
First of all I am a Russian living in America for over 15 years, so I can see both sides of the debate the American's and Russian. (I can not speak for Europe) I see several issues in the conflict and the necessary Western reaction to it. First who started, then was the Russian reaction proper, was the US reaction proper and what to do now. I believe that the Georgians initiated the conflict. Their excuse that they were provoked is not valid because they were just as guilty in the border clashes prior to the war. AS for the war’s conduct Georgian shelling of civilian targets in inexcusable and criminal. It is one thing had their artillery been used in urban areas to attack military targets, but instead Georgians used it as terror weapon. Georgians fired BM21 Grad, which is an area weapon designed to destroy 1km by 1 km target, into a civilian city. That is simply criminal. For the Russian part they targeted only military targets, although often unsuccessfully resulting in civilian damage, but over all they at least tried. As for criticism that it was 'overreacting' I would disagree. Russians destroyed Georgia's offensive capability, a justifiable actions given Georgia's aggression. On the other hand Russia's inability or unwillingness to restrain Ossetia irregulars is also inexcusable. Although to give Russia credit it did not have nearly enough troops in the area, to both fight the Georgians and police the Ossetians. AS for the US reaction, they were completely out of place. US media was openly bias. When Russian aircraft struck military targets in or near Georgian cities, CNN reported that "Russians air force is bombing Georgian towns". On TV CNN never reported what targets were hit in the cities, and on their websites the targets were mentioned only at the bottom of the article. We as Americans completely ignored the precedent we ourselves have set in the last two decades and identified Russia as aggressor even though Georgia was responsible. Further more Georgia is our client state. It relies on us for protection against it's neighbors, which is fine. Georgian people have a right to choose their own destiny, but that destiny does not include oppressing other nations. We as American must restrain our allies and nations that depend on us for security. Our guarantee of their independence should not extend to allowing them into dragging us into wars or conflicts with their neighbors, if they start wars with their neighbors, well then they are on their own. Lastly as for the Abkhazian and Ossetia independence as well as Crimean question, the best way to solve this issue in my opinion is to hold a referendum（全民投票）. Observers from non aligned countries such as Brazil, India, South Africa, and Chile should verify the results. US, EU, China and Venezuela should be excluded as their results will be naturally biased. In short in the age of democracy why are the ruling elites deciding the issues when they should be put to the vote.
这个俄裔美国人认为应该在让除了美国，欧盟，中国，委内瑞拉等国的人进行投票，因为它们很少带有感情色彩。

rafael tavares wrote:
Moderator, I have appreciated the debate. Although some people have complained that the standards of the Oxford-style have not been met by some posters, I disagree of that. If the motive of the debate was addressing a newly assertive Russia, we have to understand the Russians in the first place. I notice that the Russian individuals posting comments in this debate were quite assertive in their own way and thus provided me with good hints of what their nature would be. Anyway, when the comments are too lengthy, we can always pass them by. As a Brazilian, I must say that Russians are not very familiar to us although there are areas in southern Brazil colonised by Russian immigrants. In fact I once worked with a descendant of those people and ended up with a good reference of this specific person as a soft-spoken, trustworthy and dedicated professional. I had another reference from a Russian ballet teacher working in Rio de Janeiro that declared Russians had many laudable（值得赞赏的） points in common with the Brazilian people in her opinion, being sensible and emotive and therefore apt for performing arts such as the ballet (and soccer and the samba, I would add). After reading most of the comments I would say as a conclusion that the Russian posting comments struck me not as barbarian or either as childish but rather as plainly human, with charachters just like everybody else both with upsides and shortcomings we are all aware of in ourselves. Notwithstanding economic counter-measures that have been suggested as an efficient answer to Russian O&G restrictions to Western Europe, would not listening to what they are trying to say help finding other courses of action?

Man_of_the_world wrote:
Moderator: indeed that was a close call. I must say that I have always been dubious about the effectiveness of sanctions. Arguably, so are the proponents of sanctions as targeted sanctions (as opposed to broad sanctions that affect innocent civilians) seem to be in vogue now. Yet again, if we are to target the rich elites that spend their time and money in London and the Swiss ski slopes, who will end up losing out ? the target of the sanctions or the companies and service providers that sell the expensive timepieces and private schools ? Moreover, if we are to target the Russian ruling elite for actions in Georgia, does it mean that the members of Bush and Blair administrations should be equally targeted by sanctions for questionable actions in Iraq or are we back to we are the good guys (and hence exempt) and they are the bad ones ?
拿俄罗斯与格鲁吉亚同美英与伊拉克比较。

archaeologyUID: 2598252

comments from the floor



revmarkpb wrote:
I would have voted in the affirmative but I am not sure what "bolder" is myself. I think that we need to take into account the effects of the "Bush Doctrine" which, as I understand it, sees the U.S. maintaining its role as the only superpower. I think this is a threatening notion to Russia, which under its current leadership wishes to become once again a player on the world stage, powered by its oil money. They perceived a threat on their border and they acted with the power at their disposal. I think historically Russia extends its borders aggressively, to say the least, and does so not only for increasing its power but for its own self-protection. It has been invaded repeatedly throughout its history. Russia responded to a dismal foreign policy on the part of the U.S. as has Iran and North Korea to being included as part of the "Axis of Evil", which is part of Mr. Bush's obsession（沉迷） to pretend（妄想） he's Ronald Reagan.
里根在美国的地位很高。
盖洛普民意测验做了一次谁是最受欢迎的美国总统的调查。罗纳德•里根得到最高的87%支持，接下来依序是约翰·肯尼迪、德怀特·艾森豪威尔、和富兰克林•德拉诺•罗斯福。里根在接下来每年的许多民调测验中继续被选为是最好的美国总统之一。



AliceinWonderland wrote:
"What's your view on the vote?" A vote like a vote, normal, fifty-fifty approximately. Anne-Marie has won, but then she does look better in the picture than Dimitry! as becoming a lady, and a nice scarf, and all. The moderator I am sorry I haven't addressed. As he rightly writes "keeping to the Oxford format, addressing the moderator." Big mistake. Because the moderator seems to be the least friendly to Russia of the three of them. And we left him unattended. Live and learn and never forget about moderators. "Is it merely to get rich and keep some of the dignity due a great civilisation and nuclear former superpower? Or is it so aggressively nervous that it must actively dominate its neighbours?" I don't understand the moderator, neither part of the three ideas mentioned here. "to get rich" - has nothing to do with Russia. It doesn't inspire as a "national idea" for the future, as the aim. "to get rich" - neither one can by that war, or by the following re-building SO after the war, neither by the following keeping SO and Abkhasia on board. What can "get rich" have to do with the whole Caucasus affair? "keep some of the dignity due a great civilisation." Why "some"? We don't feel guilty. We plan to keep all of it due. "keep some of the dignity due...nuclear former superpower". A./ Ownership of nuclear armament doesn't grant a country any dignity. "Dignity" is not an effect of arms. So thanks for the idea, but we don't ask for "dignity" on the metal basis. B./ why so much "former". Still enough of that. "Super" - we've never been, aways less than USA. "aggressively nervous", well, this can be disputed, but I won't, because these are attributes, subject to personal opinion. May be we are aggressively nervous. Less than USA, though, when it hit Iraq on suspicion of things Iraq haven't had, nd less than the USA is now aggressively nervous about Iran, planning to hit it any other day. There are various degrees possible is being "nervous". "must actively dominate its neighbours" We don't dominate Georgia and don't plan to. Georgia is dominated by Saakashvili and Bush, anyone but Russia. And will be dominated by them or whoever comes next, Nino Burdzanadze and whichever of the US potential presidents.


ObservantW wrote:
Kalikanzari wrote: September 18, 2008 18:42 To ObservantW You seem to be lost in your wishful thinking by claiming a total lie. You put the words in Ms. Rice's mouth that she has not spoken. The only thing she said was that Georgia's leaders "could have responded better to the events last month in South Ossetia" Dear Kalikanzari, =On August 7th, following repeated violations of the ceasefire in South Ossetia, including the shelling of Georgian villages, the Georgian government launched a major military operation into Tskhinvali and other areas of the separatist region. Regrettably, several Russian peacekeepers were killed in the fighting.= http://blogs.state.gov/index.php/entires/russias future/ Condy finally agrees she's been lying all the time. The question is for what reason all the lies are. Some final words to our Georgian forum participants – you cannot build lasting sovereign country with sustained development, basing on lies, hostility to you neighboring countries and people, acting as a stooge of USA - swiftly becoming Russia’s enemy, worshiping Stalin.


AliceinWonderland wrote:
Kalikanzari, The whole forum is already discussing the forum results, and we, you and me, Russia and Georgia, are still stuck discussing old grudges… Oh well. gulping up whole nations and destroying their identity. Ask Polish, Czech, Baltic, Caucasian, Siberian, Ukrainian, Central Asian, Far North and dozen others what you have done to them. Don’t make me remind you on Holodomor, Katyn Forest or Gulag. What we have done is we either saved their identitity or created it, often from very poor own base. From legends and songs wrote up small nations’ histories, so that they have something to stand upon. Where there wasn’t an own alphabet – we did it. And made sure studies in local schools are done in local languages, and taught teachers for those tricky small local languages. What has exactly USSR did to your Georgian identity? Wasn’t your church big and powerful? By the way, unlike you do, they remember that it is Russia that saved the very Georgian christianity, among powerful muslim neighbours, and have no disagreements with the neighbour Russian orthodox church. Didn’t you study in Georgian? Haven’t had schools and universities? Theatres and printing houses, printing million copies of Georgian literature? Or is your complaint that Russian schools in Russia taught Georgian history and literature badly? As far as I remember every Soviet kid compulsory studies your 12th century top achievement “Knight”. Funny to hear, from the old ex-republic, that lived nearly best of all (after Baltic ones) that it was supressed and depressed. You were financed best of all. Lived more rich than any Russian in the Russian Federation. Because of your damn Stalin and Georgian Co in government other. A tiny detail – never a piece of frozen beef or pig was delivered to Georgia in 50 Soviet years. Only live cattle. Because Georgians – are special people. 14 Soviet republics can eat frozen meat – and Georgians can’t. It is their tradition – to bake whole cows and sheep, make shah-lik! They’ll die tomorrow, if Moscow will dare to send to this republic something –ugh- frozen! Goes against their identity. Spoiled most of all – and now angry with Russia most of all! I think you are very unthankful folk. See – how you claim now that in 1797 or something Russia committed a deadly sin – didn’t come to help you in time when you were raided in by Persians. Deeply offended. Will never forget. I can foresee how Saakashvili starts his speech in the future investigation committee of Hillary Clinton from this first and major offence. Oh the Russian empress dared to die! And the next Russian tsar wasn’t so fond of Georgia, forgot to come to its help ! How he dared to forget about this VIP precious place! You still think yourself the centre of the universe. All Russia constantly owes you. Why didn’t it help in 1797! How did it dare to raise gas price – georgia is its “ex” – why should it pay European rates! Same claim from all of the “ex”. We were feeding you for centuries, protected you for centuries, and we still owe you! Still a million and a half Georgians work in Russia, send money home keeping you national budget afloat, and you are unhappy! Go work in USA. They are your new patron. On your own feet you never stood a sec. Someone ought to keep you. Hilarious you tell me about Gulag, your own Stalin. Or did you suddenly take away his adoration museum in Gori, precious house under the huge glass cupola? You Hermitage, national pride and treasure. Don’t remember one car in Georgia in the Soviet times, where a Stalin’s portrait won’t be decorating the front window. Patron saint. If not for Russia, your Saakshvili would be muslim now. And you yourself. When your GeorgeXII asked Russia to take Georgia in, he didn’t do it from good life, but because you were totally swallowed up by Iran and Turkey. What was left over from you by that time? A handful of people, alphabet and old legends. A spirit of a country, not a country. An idea. A symbol. And a huge royal house, constantly quarreling, each member having 25 children competing for the throne. I think when you joined us your royal house numbered more people than the rest of the population. Only grand dukes and princes. And all lived here in St. Petersburg, in various degrees of exhile – at Russian royalty expense – full palaces kept afloat, huge royal royalties paid – by Russia – mind it – even your own royalty never had a copeck of their own money – but were kept in the style of old kings. All of them threw great parties, recruited friends, were plotting, planning coups, quarreled non-stop who is the real tsar of Georgia. Here, in St. Petersburg. I agree with you Kolhida is pre-historic Georgia. But even at the height of yur achievements, during the reign of Queen Tamara – your kingdom was called “Tsardom of Abkhaz and Georgians.” Not even “georgians”, that your other old, name. Abhaz – first. I think it’s right that we gave you Abkhasia – and now took it back. You were never thankful for it anyway. If you loved them so much – why do they hate you so well? Maybe if you were nicer to them – they’d like now to be Georgian, not Russian. We don’t need more land. We don’t need neither South Osetia nor Abkhasia. If you could have lived with them allright – who’d care! They asked us for help. There was a shout “Help!” And don’t forget to complain in the UN how your other old neighbours offended you throughout your history. All charming wonders, Iran and Turkey.


Kalikanzari wrote:
To AliceinWonderland:‘Do you need to look up in wiki what Russia is?’Certainly you don’t – whole world knows who you are through the centuries of bloodshed and annexation of its neighbours. An empire which never stops to think about expansion, gulping up whole nations and destroying their identity. Ask Polish, Czech, Baltic, Caucasian, Siberian, Ukrainian, Central Asian, Far North and dozen others what you have done to them. Don’t make me remind you on Holodomor, Katyn Forest or Gulag.‘It’s to the West you’ll be explaining for the next centuries who is pinto and what’s fun in walnut jam.’Thanks to you, we don’t need to any more. Anyway, we just want to pursue our own destiny and you seem to be unable to accept that by being lost in imperialistic glory of the past.‘You’ve asked to be Russian this is a fact’As always, you seem to take up only the things that suit you and you try to misinterpret the facts.‘Erekle II, king of Kartli-Kakheti from 1762 to 1798, turned towards Russia for protection against Ottoman and Persian attacks.’ Do you frankly think that pleas for a military help to the neighbouring Orthodox country needs to be understood as a call for Russification and annexation? Especially when ‘The Russian empress Catherine the Great was keen to have the Georgians as allies in her wars against the Turks, but sent only meagre forces to help them’?This is what Russia did instead of helping Georgia: ‘Erekle signed the Treaty of Georgievsk with Russia, according to which Kartli-Kakheti was to receive Russian protection. But when another Russo-Turkish War broke out in 1787, the Russians withdrew their troops from the region for use elsewhere, leaving Erekle's kingdom unprotected’. Furthermore, ‘In May 1801 Russian General Carl Heinrich Knorring dethroned the Georgian heir to the throne David Batonishvili and deployed a government headed by General Ivan Petrovich Lasarev. A part of the Georgian nobility didn't accept the decree until April 1802 when General Knorring compassed the nobility in Tbilisi's Sioni Cathedral and forced them to take an oath on the imperial crown of Russia. Those who disagreed were arrested temporarily.’ Even more ‘By 1811, the Church in Georgia was absorbed into the Synodal Church of Russia, ending autocephaly for the Georgian church’. Do you want us to forget that?‘Also, look at your country size throughout a thousand years in wiki. With all respect, it haven’t had anything nearby. At max it looks like Tbilisi 50 km around. OK, a hundred!’I leave this on your conscience. It’s a pity one can’t attach the maps, but anyone interested can have a look at them themselves.‘... and we don’t change our text-books every 20 years, according to the current political trends, like you do’The best defence is attack, isn’t it? Do I have to remind you that your beloved government turned the history upside down just recently by releasing those infamous school textbooks that call Stalin 'the most successful Russian leader of the twentieth century'? We live in the information age, have a look: http://windowoneurasia.blogspot. ... a-yeltsin-laid.html‘Only Armenians never boast like Georgians do, and don’t call neighbours barbarians’Oh no, they don’t call Turkish people ‘barbarians’ and don’t accuse them of genocide.‘You honestly consider Russians to be barbarians, and Abhasians, and South Osetians – don’t wonder then that we get united!’I never called Abkhazians or Ossetians barbarians, it’s you who used that word in the first hand and you fail to spell their names correctly as well.‘But we kept climbing our trees, how to say, in very wide areas – when you were sitting in the small tiny hole, focused on writing down your alphabet’Yes, and producing one the first Christian literature in the fourth centuty.‘Even wiki rightly points out that all your sea-side, ports of Poti and Batumi, and many parts other, were taken by Russian arms from Tukey; are not your historical lands and not your own achievement.’Yes, thanks for helping us, but does that entail you to take them away from us? What kind of help is that? Not our historic land? That is where Kolhida was born in the times of BC and remained the Georgian territory until Turks defeated Byzantium that allowed them to continue expanding towards Georgia.‘Georgia was subjected, between 1386 and 1404, to several disastrous invasions by Timur’The same time Russia was under the Golden Horde, remember?‘I don’t know how you count, Sarkozy has been in Moscow twice and composed 2 papers. You can call one the continuation of another, but these are 2 diff. sheets of paper, signed by Medvedev at 3 weeks interval, and signed by your Saakashvili one after another as well‘Here is the official letter signed by President Saakashvili:‘Implementation of the plan of 12 August 2008Reaffirmation of the commitment of all the parties to implement in full all the provisions of the Medvedev-Sarkozy six-point plan of 12 August 2008.1. Withdrawal of forces• Withdrawal of all Russian peace-keeping forces from the five observation posts on the line between Poti and Senaki, within a maximum of seven days, taking into account the signing on 8 September of legally binding documents guaranteeing the non-use of force against Abkhazia.• Complete withdrawal of the Russian peace-keeping forces from the areas adjacent to South Ossetia and Abkhazia to their positions prior to the outbreak of hostilities. This withdrawal will take place within 10 days after the deployment in these areas of the international mechanisms, including at least 200 European Union observers, which must take place no later than 1 October 2008, in view of the existence of legally binding documents guaranteeing the non-use of force against Abkhazia and South Ossetia.• Completion of the return of the Georgian armed forces to their bases by 1 October 2008.2. International observation mechanisms• The UNOMIG international observers will continue to carry out their mandate in their areas of responsibility with the same number of personnel and deployment blueprint as at 7 August 2008, subject to future adjustments decided by the UN Security Council.• The OSCE international observers will continue to carry out their mandate in their areas of responsibility with the same number of personnel and deployment blueprint as at 7 August 2008, subject to future adjustments decided by the OSCE Permanent Council.• The preparations will be speeded up to allow the deployment of additional observers in the areas adjacent to South Ossetia and Abkhazia in sufficient numbers to replace the Russian peacekeeping forces by 1 October 2008, including at least 200 European Union observers.• The European Union as guarantor of the principle of non-use of force is actively preparing the deployment of an observation mission to complement the existing observation mechanisms.3. International discussions• The international discussions provided for in point six of the Medvedev-Sarkozy plan of 12 August 2008 will begin on 15 October 2008 in Geneva. The preparatory talks will begin in September.These will focus, inter alia, on:- the arrangements to ensure security and stability in the region;- the issue of refugees and displaced persons on the basis of the internationally recognised principles and post-conflict settlement practice;- any other subject, by mutual agreement of the parties.’Seems you fail to notice ‘Reaffirmation of the commitment of all the parties to implement in full all the provisions of the Medvedev-Sarkozy six-point plan of 12 August 2008’.‘Anyway what do you care, we keep to the deal, call it one and the same deal or one being a natural continuation of the other’And this is point 5 from the Medvedev-Sarkozy six-point plan of 12 August 2008:‘Russian forces shall withdraw to the positions [they had held] prior to the start of hostilities. Awaiting an international mechanism, Russian peacekeepers shall implement additional security measures.’Do you claim that Russian forces have withdrawn to the positions they had held prior to the start of hostilities? The truth is, Russia is agreeing the military bases in both breakaway regions. Furthermore, the point 6 from the same plan:"Opening international discussions on the modalities of sustainable security in Abkhazia and South Ossetia, based on decisions by the United Nations and the OSCE."So, this is how you keep the deal, by unilaterally recognizing their independence without consulting UN and OSCE?Again, Russian hypocrisy is self evident, I rest my case.

archaeologyUID: 2598252

comments from the floor


DayTime wrote:
I interpret such a closely divided outcome to mean this: Yes, Russia needs to learn international political cooperation, and an Western alliance is the only means through which to do so. However, since the USA has now created its deserved reputation as the "international bully." I think that we should just sit down and let those nations that are more credible and better negotiators handle this situation with Russia. Dmitri communicates well how sensitive Russia is to its historical relationship with the USA, and since we do not have the diplomatic skills to know how to communicate with them respectfully and in one voice with what should be our partnered-democracy, then we should at the very least "do no harm" and stay out of the foreground of the debate. We can only hope that our next administration will do everything it can to repair our reputation as the Biggest Bully, so that we can enter a new era of international politics as a partner instead of a dictator and in the process assist Russia in losing much of its insecurity over its place of respect and importance on this planet.
posted on 19/09/2008 22:22:42 pm Recommended (0) Report abuse

AliceinWonderland wrote:
“I'd advise you to go to wiki and look up history of Georgia.” Do you need to look up in wiki what Russia is? Thank you, we know you for centuries and don’t need to look up in internet where are you and how come. It’s to the West you’ll be explaining for the next centuries who is pinto and what’s fun in walnut jam. You trust they’ll ever learn to understand you… good luck. However extra knowledge never hurts, I took your advice and looked up. Except that the article was donated by clearly a Georgian, a very biased look re Stalin and Gamsakhurdia and several other recent points in relation to the war, I didn’t find anything very disagreeable and particular in wiki, that goes against my Russian home schooling. ? what did you want to prove by wiki? Your George XII petitioned Russia to take Georgia under its wing? Petitioned. What’s the problem? Rusian history has it “petition on the knees”, as its text goes. Your modern history states it simply as “petitioned”, without any “knees”. But these are nuances. You’ve asked to be Russian this is a fact. If you are still angry with us that by the prev. deal of your tsar Irakly with Russia ab military protection you were not covered very well and indeed there was a raid in done by Persians, then – I am sorry! Really. Russian Empress Catherine II died at that moment, there was simply a mess here, nobody to help you. Yes, true, but what to do. Also, look at your country size throughout a thousand years in wiki. With all respect, it haven’t had anything nearby. At max it looks like Tbilisi 50 km around. OK, a hundred! I don’t deny you had alphabet and literature and culture as you write “when Russians were climbing the trees”. It is a known fact taught at all Russian schools - and we don’t change our text-books every 20 years, according to the current political trends, like you do. Georgia and Armenia are the oldest Christianities in the region, old and excellent cultures. Only Armenians never boast like Georgians do, and don’t call neighbours barbarians. You honestly consider Russians to be barbarians, and Abhasians, and South Osetians – don’t wonder then that we get united! But we kept climbing our trees, how to say, in very wide areas – when you were sitting in the small tiny hole, focused on writing down your alphabet. Even wiki rightly points out that all your sea-side, ports of Poti and Batumi, and many parts other, were taken by Russian arms from Tukey; are not your historical lands and not your own achievement. "From 1803 to 1878, as a result of numerous Russian wars against Turkey and Iran, several territories were annexed to Georgia. These areas (Batumi, Akhaltsikhe, Poti, and Abkhazia) now represent a large part of the territory of Georgia." Even acc. to the heavy “Georgian” article in wiki – here is your history between 1100 to 1800. Where do you see there a separate country “Georgia”? You were always small separate kingdoms. : "The Georgian Kingdom reached its zenith in the 12th to early 13th centuries. This period has been widely termed as Georgia's Golden Age or Georgian Renaissance during the reign of David the Builder and Queen Tamar. The Golden age of Georgia left a legacy of great cathedrals, romantic poetry and literature, and the epic poem "The Knight in the Panther's Skin". The revival of the Georgian Kingdom was short-lived however, in 1226 Tblisi was captured by Mingburnu and the Kingdom was eventually subjugated by the Mongols in 1236 (see Mongol invasions of Georgia). Thereafter, different local rulers fought for their independence from central Georgian rule, until the total disintegration of the Kingdom in the 15th century. Georgia was subjected, between 1386 and 1404, to several disastrous invasions by Timur. Neighbouring kingdoms exploited the situation and from the 16th century, the Persian Empire and the Ottoman Empire subjugated the eastern and western regions of Georgia, respectively. The rulers of regions which remained partly autonomous organized rebellions on various occasions. Subsequent Persian and Ottoman invasions further weakened local kingdoms and regions. As a result of wars the population of Georgia was reduced to 250,000 inhabitants at one point. Eastern Georgia, composed of the kingdoms of Kartli and Kakheti, had been under the Persian suzerainty since 1555. However, with the death of Nader Shah "The Persian Napoleon" in 1747, both kingdoms broke free of the Persian control and were reunified through a personal union under the energetic king Heraclius II in 1762. Georgia in the Russian Empire”There is no 'deal no. 2', it is just putting time frames to the agreement reached beforehand which clearly states that Russia has to remove it's troops to the positions prior to August 7th. Don't mislead people by claiming it is a new agreement, you just make it plain that you are another hypocrite.” I don’t know how you count, Sarkozy has been in Moscow twice and composed 2 papers. You can call one the continuation of another, but these are 2 diff. sheets of paper, signed by Medvedev at 3 weeks interval, and signed by your Saakashvili one after another as well. Besides, look up in your fav. Wiki the texts yourself, and you’ll see Russia signed nothing of the kind. What Russia signed is “to return to the positions prior to August 7th AND maintain additional security measures until international mechanisms are in place.” Anyway what do you care, we keep to the deal, call it one and the same deal or one being a natural continuation of the other. “By international probe I do not mean international monitors, I mean full-scale international inquiry into the actions of the sides leading to the conflict.” Absolutely look forward to the commission that Hillary Clinton seems like have convinced all to organise.


HardTruth wrote:
Gentlemen,Condolz speech proves clearly:It is in vital interests of the current American establishment to pump up hostilities, to presents the things worse than they are, and this is done not to assert US image in the world as world policeman, no, the true goal is to impress the nation before the elections that McCain "is the guy to lead the nation in times of danger".How obvious this is, I just hope that American people will not take this bait.


ObservantW wrote:
Have somebody listened or heard Dr. Goebbels speeches? If not just hear that of Dr. Rice about Russia. The complete speech http://www.youtube.com/results?search query=Condy Rice Russsia is in deep&search type=&aq=f (Excerpts - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zG9-OKuVAM) What was the purpose of this anti-Russian speech? Was it directed to Russia or Russians? I think there are just two reasons: 1) To remobilize Europe for hostile approach toward Russia, by sending clear signals to the UE leaders who thought to behave to independently (of US) and to oaafer all US support to those who will follow the Second Cold War neocons approach. 2) To create alibi for US and to warn those who is pointing out that this is USA who started Second Cold War. When stammering Condoleezza Rice is making a point that it is Russia who has chosen to isolate itself, and it is not US who is trying to isolate Russian in the World and it is not US who starts Second Cold War (as she just said today sept.19 2008 in her most Russophobic speech) – I recall Dr. Freud theory and it well known Russian proverbial equivalent: Q.Who does scream “stop thief” most loud? A. A thief him(her)self. Now I understand why US and UK is so Russophobic – it’s because there such people still exist, while we all though they’ve become cold war dinosaurs sediments. According to the contemporary political genre – the next will be Mr. Miliband entrance. Applause!!!! But there is a good news as well! After 41 days of demonizing Russia, Dr.Rice has told the World the fact which failed to be hidden and have been actually known by everybody – Georgia has launched military operation, attacking Tshinvali and other regions of S.Ossetia and Russia just reacted to that. My congratulations to the western journalists – now, after 41 days, you are allowed openly discuss this first issue of who started and what was the action, which was followed by Russian Reaction. However the second issue of disproportionality of Russia reaction is still closed for open discussion, according to Dr. Rice.



Devast wrote:
LazaBrkonja wrote: Samson151 - Nice comment about Wag the Dog. That actually happened...it was the Kosovo war - with Clinton in the starring role of President. If you don't beleive that...do the research on when the Camp Bonsteel (where we still have occupying troops 9 years after the bombing) plans were completed in relation to the action. If you research it now...you can also tie that military action to Caspian Oil - google AMBOil Pipeline. It's typical...the US is so arrogant...and the funniest thing of all is we're BROKE! We bail out Fannie & Freddie 'cause if we don't the Chinese won't buy any more of our debt...but we want to bluster. Unbelievable! 9/18/2008 7:41:19 PM Samson151 wrote: Remember in Wag the Dog, when they decide to stage a war to distract from the President's getting caught with an underage girl? The Administration really doesn't want us thinking too much about Wall Street, and whose fault it might be.


Devast wrote:
from WaPo about Condi speech last night... presGWBfanclub wrote: i've given this a lot of thought.. but from now on? i think that EVERYONE in the bush administration should be required to wear clown outfits when giving public statements. and i'm not talking just the bright orange hair.. i'm talking the big round red nose, the big red rosy cheeks on the white painted face.. the little tiny bolin hat, the pretty flowers on the one piece jump suit, and the size 24 shoes. oh yea.. the ruffled collar and cuffs will add immensely as well.. why do i want to see this happen? well.. the bush admin has ZERO credibility.. and if they wear clown outfits, they will probably jump in the polls by 20 points overnight.. everyone trusts a clown, right? 9/18/2008 7:52:55 PM Recommend (9) Report Abuse Discussion Policy wardropper wrote: Excuse me, I just have to laugh for about 40 minutes, and then I have to throw up for about 5 additional minutes. RUSSIA bullying????????????????????? Bullying the most shameless and wretched bully the 21st Century has ever encountered (and most of the 20th, for that matter) ????? Interesting specimens, these Bush appointees. They will say any old thing they find convincing at the time, and will quite happily accuse others of every crime they commit themselves. They would have to be extraordinarily stupid not to see that this is what they are doing. The reason they need to sit in prison for treason is that they don't care what we think of them, and that harms us. The people they were elected to SERVE. Boy, do they like to forget that fact. EVERY politician must care what the people think, or risk unemployment.


Devast wrote:
What Georgia did to South Ossetia is inexcusable. They were prompted into attacking South Ossetia by none other than the interfering bullying Bush administration. Even Georgian mothers criticised what Georgian soldiers did. If Americans looked and listened to international news, instead of the one-sided US propaganda, the truth would be revealed. Its all about US/Nato military expansionism and oil. Russia has done nothing that the US wouldn’t do, and with a fraction of the typical US force and aggression. Putin is right, the neocons are trying to ratchet up the rhetoric just before the presidential elections. We’ve seen it and heard it all before (first with the nuclear threat of Iraq which wasn’t, then with Iran – which doesn’t even have nuclear weapons yet, and now Russia). It seems that this administration isn’t happy having enemies in the Middle East and Afghanistan. It wants to add Europe as well. Well, whatever the papers say, most Europeans do not support Condi, Bush and Cheney’s current posturing.


Devast wrote:
from WaPo forum dsrobins wrote: Dark turn? Well, she should know having worked for GWBush and Darth Vader Cheney for the past eight years. One wonders who she really takes her orders from. 9/19/2008 12:20:41 AM Recommend (0) Report Abuse Discussion Policy TheVillageIdiot wrote: Looking at these comments it appears that Rice, not Russia, has lost all relevance. US has no moral standing to preach policies to Russia after invading Iraq. 9/19/2008 12:06:48 AM Recommend (0) Report Abuse Discussion Policy Schwartz1 wrote: Rice is nuts. Congressman Dana Rohrabacher says that Georgia instigated this crisis. We are NOT all Georgians. Rice is a knucklehead. 9/18/2008 11:37:32 PM Recommend (1) Report Abuse Discussion Policy OscarMayer2 wrote: Who cares. The next administration will have to sort out the mess this Administration has created. 9/18/2008 11:35:29 PM Recommend (0) Report Abuse Discussion Policy fmmurphy wrote: The last 8 years have been a living nightmare. For the sake of the US and for the rest of the world, I hope we will wake up from this terrible dream and return to something our noble founding fathers had in mind. This nightmare is going to end on November 4, isn't it? bengtl wrote: Two reasons the Bush administration is a dark turn: 1) aggressive war as policy 2) defining torture as not-torture. The first one is insane, and the other one is a lie. 9/18/2008 10:50:52 PM


Devast wrote:
Russia's invasion of Georgia was highly moral. When your family is attacked, you have a moral obligation to protect them and prevent the attacker from doing it again. Georgia attacked first killing both UN-approved peacekeeping troops and civilians holding Russian passports. Russia quite properly pushed the Georgians back and destroyed their capacity to re-attack. The Abkhazians and Ossetians do not want to be part of Georgia. This is understandable, not only because they speak a different language but also because Georgians do not have a history of niceness. Not only was Stalin a Georgian but so was Lavrentiy Beria, his security chief, who was responsible for the murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent people. And don't forget Beria's henchmen - men like Merkulov, Dekanazov and Kobulov - all thugs and all Georgians. It would not be an exaggeration to say that during its worse years, the Soviet Union was led by a gang of murderous Georgians. Does that mean all Georgians are bad? No, but neither are the Russians who freely chose Medvedev and Putin as their leaders.


ObservantW wrote:
Georgia was and has been a sovereign country for about 20 years (I am not going into ancient history) 3 years just before Russian Imperia and Soviet Union (president Jordania) And last 17 years (presidents: Gamsahurdia, Shevarnadze, Saakashvili). There is something common between these four presidents of Georgia: First of all, all four of them became a president as a result of coup (and finished the same way except Saaka yet) Secondly, all four of them launched brutal assaults and mass killings of Abhazs and Ossetians (as they regarded and openly call these people as lowest sort). It looks that slotting Abhazs and Ossetians are two favorite national Georgian games…


Chuluun wrote:
Recent speech of Rice on Russia is outrageous and harmful for the entire world. Yes, she can say badly few Russian words, play piano, however does it mean that she knows much about Russia, does 50 years old “single” women decide the future stability of the world? Is she a God? Look to your backyard Mam, people of USA are suffering because of you, the world is suffering: AIG and all financial sector of USA. Mam, your debt/USA reached 10 trillion dollars, look you budget deficit. Forget the Russia, just think about your own country future, or you are thirsty for new blood. I believe because of your “smartness” 1.6 million Iraqis people died already, how many more? Enough is enough, Blood lover!

archaeologyUID: 2598252

comments from the floor
Ben Reffell wrote:
So Putin stopped Russia from "getting a bloody nose" from Georgia. Which of course is largely a ploy to divert his own peoples attention to something other than their own problems, one of the oldest tricks in the book. However while he was doing that he forgot to cover Russia's balls (the stock market), which everyone else has given a good kicking! This just goes to show that Russia will be the ultimate looser in any aggression as it is largely foreign money that is driving it's success (together with some hard work by the average Russian & corruption by the elite). History has shown that you need to confront bullies as erly as possible as their behavior only gets worse.

Kalikanzari wrote:
To AliceinWonderlandYou'd better learn some history before posting, for the start I'd advise you to go to wiki and look up history of Georgia. Russia has annexed Georgia several years after signing a treaty of help and leaving Erekle II alone on the battlefield. Georgia has a history spanning from times before Christ and it was one of the first Christian states in the world (IV-th century). Russians were still climbing the trees when we already had a language and alphabet.There is no 'deal no. 2', it is just putting time frames to the agreement reached beforehand which clearly states that Russia has to remove it's troops to the positions prior to August 7th. Don't mislead people by claiming it is a new agreement, you just make it plain that you are another hypocrite.By international probe I do not mean international monitors, I mean full-scale international inquiry into the actions of the sides leading to the conflict.Concerning to forget the annexed territories - dream on! Let's see what the future will bring...

AliceinWonderland wrote:
" The fact that Russians do not allow any international probe into Samachablo (South Ossetia) should be viewed by any reasonable person as evidence of Russia's fault." By "any int'l probe" you mean int'l monitors and peaceful watchers, that, indeed, we not let to be positioned in either SO and Abkhasia. The thing is they shouldn't be there. Acc. to the Medvedev-Sarkozy deal No 2, int'l monitors and "peaceful watchers", in huge quantities, were agreed to be placed in the "buffer zone", namely in the "Georgia land proper." Not a metre into SO and Abhasia. Sarkozy now says "we wish to be guided by the spirit of the document". Please, don't be guided by the "spirit". Be guided by the letter of the document. Hell knows what will "spirit" advise you. About "Samachablo" - Georgian name - simply forget. "South Osetia" - Russian name - is wrong as well. Russia will try to forget about it. Since they became independent they call themselves neither in Georgian nor in Russian, something very tricky and unpronounceable that I haven't learned yet. But the fact is they don't like neither "Samachablo" nor "South Osetia", they have something in mind in their own language. Same with Abhasia who isn't suddenly Russian name Abhasia anylonger. If you as a Georgian will keep on "sama etc." I as a Russian might also remember that we never knew any "Georgia" for crying out loud! for centuries you were simply - a "Tiflis province."

Kalikanzari wrote:
To ObservantWYou seem to be lost in your wishful thinking by claiming a total lie. You put the words in Ms. Rice's mouth that she has not spoken. The only thing she said was that Georgia's leaders "could have responded better to the events last month in South Ossetia" but added that Russian leaders used Georgia's military action in South Ossetia "as a pretext to launch what, by all appearances, was a premeditated invasion of its independent neighbor" after having "laid the groundwork for this scenario months ago".Your futile efforts to turn the facts upside down speaks of your true face and intentions. The world has been presented by hard facts that the war has been pre-planned by Russia long ago. The fact that Russians do not allow any international probe into Samachablo (South Ossetia) should be viewed by any reasonable person as evidence of Russia's fault.As to the topic of this discussion, I would argue that westerners do not understand Russians at all. They can not be persuaded or talked into anything. They simply view it as a weakness. Remember the Cuba crisis. The only way to make them understand is to show the force, apply sanctions and put it's fascist government in total isolation. There is no other way. Unless you want to witness a rise of the fourth Reich.Regards

ObservantW wrote:
OK, today after 41 days of demonizing Russia, Dr.Rice has told the World the fact which failed to be hidden and have been actually known by everybody – Georgia has launched military operation, attacking Tshinvali and other regions of S.Ossetia and Russia just reacted to that. My congratulations to the western journalists – now, after 41 days, you are allowed openly discuss this first issue of who started and what was the action, which was followed by Russian Reaction. However the second issue of disproportionality of Russia reaction is still closed for open discussion, according to Dr. Rice.

ObservantW wrote:
I would like to remind the post I like the most here: sadovnik wrote: September 11, 2008 13:21 With this discussion now gone somewhat off course, one cannot help feeling that in truth there is not that much to debate. What has changed in the world since the 7th of August? Georgia is still Georgia. Russia is still Russia. No new borders. Abkhasia is a breakaway region unwilling to ever be part of georgia again, a position it has held for 15 years. Same applies to S Ossetia. People did get killed again . And here is the one big difference with the situation we had before the latest conflict; that is one can say with a degree confidence that this is the last time blood has been shed over the issue of who has sovereignty over those two regions. The end of 17 years of violence. The issue of returning refugees might in time even be adressed; something unthinkable untill now. That is what has changed. And it should be welcomed.

ObservantW wrote:
When stammering Condoleezza Rice is making a point that it is Russia who has chosen to isolate itself, and it is not US who is trying to isolate Russian in the World as she just said today (sept.19 2008) – I recall Dr. Freud theory and it well known Russian proverbial equivalent: Q.Who does scream “stop thief” most loud? A. A thief him(her)self.

JC - Bath wrote:
I fear that the West has rather painted itself into a corner. Rash or hasty promises to Georgia, and others, are now being revealed by a resurgent and assertive Russia. Hindsight, though, will not extract us from the position we are now in. Better to disabuse our putative allies now of any real and immediate intent that the West has to support them. The only other option is our later abandonment of our principles in the face of real politik and the greater betrayal of trust that this will entail.

AliceinWonderland wrote:
Poor Anne-Marie and Robert and Dmitry. What a mess of comments to extract something sensible out, and moreover agree on something somehow, or draw conclusions or I don't know what. And not even this, the very question "What to do with Russia?". I mean many capable minds got eh, broken, in this thinking angle process. Echo-es to be or not to be - that is! etc. Also continuous historical Russian duet of questions - Who is guilty? and What is to be done? Anyway as Russian I am pleased with this attention. Much more boring when noone is interested in you and you are alone, and now, because of this Georgia - suddenly we are back on stage. For a short little while. So thank you to the people who on self-will took the trouble to think about us, does not so much matter what they come up with as the final result of it.

AliceinWonderland wrote:
".. is deflate the balloon that has given Russia its impetus - oil and gas and an economy that is entirely dependent on the transient wealth that it brings." oj oj oj. How cynical. To deprive Russia of its first-ever money it got. "Lower revenues from oil and less money to brass up the Russian military may have a salutary effect." The advocate of these measures is not very aware of Russian ways & habits... The one single copeck coin left will be spent exactly on the military. To make salutes and other effects. As the joke here goes: - Daddy, daddy! Vodka has become more expensive! Does it mean you will drink less of it now? - No, sonny. This means you will eat less.

Tony Imbrogno wrote:
If being bold means sending EU envoys to both capitals to try and work out a deal, even when you really have no hope either side will listen, then yes, the West should be bold. But let's not kid ourselves: we got lucky that France held the EU's rotating presidency. It seems to me that the EU would not have been so successful if Estonia or Portugal were in charge (no offence!). In light of this, I say, yes, be bold, but also bring along the Lisbon Treaty, and hope European politicians are wise enough to place an internationally-respected figure in the President's chair.

Omo Alhaja wrote:
Russia has always appeared to me to be a country that only understands and respects firm handling. In this case, Putin and his sidekick, President Medvedev (who sometimes gives me the impression of being a reluctant accomplice) are playing a shooting game of to the accolades of an appreciative Russian population. A bold response is called for undoubtedly. The question surely is: what does boldness consist of? Overt aggression by the West, either directly or through surrogates on Russia's borders is both out of the question and, in my view, uncalled for at this time. What the rest of the world needs to do is deflate the balloon that has given Russia its impetus - oil and gas and an economy that is entirely dependent on the transient wealth that it brings. Already, Russian stock markets have taken a bigger hit than more developed markets. Lower revenues from oil and less money to brass up the Russian military may have a salutary effect. Additionally quiet curbs on the activities of Russian oligarchs abroad (many of whom are also 'purses' for Russian public officials) and the flow of Russian funds into investment outside the country, backed up by firm diplomatic and economic support for the countries of Russia's beleaguered 'Near Abroad' will, hopefully, go a long way to calm Russian exuberance.Whatever is done, mere talk, appeasement or anything that remotely resembles it, are not options that are worth being on the table.

AliceinWonderland wrote:
The UK lead in applying sanctions to Russia (Foreign Office prohibited the military orchestra of 40 bagpipers to take part in the music festival "Kremlin sunrises" in Moscow) was followed by some other countries: Estonia. To annoy the Russians even better, Estonians agreed to speak from now on twice slower (than usual). Germany said it will make its Tchinghiz-Khan rock group to re-write song "Moscow" to "Tbilisi". Also, Germany from now on will forge awful Soviet cars' emblems onto all of its Mercedeses sold into Russia. Belgium said it will turn its fountain "Peeing boy" towards Russia. In Riga it was decided to spit into every tin of sardines sold into Russia. Poland will stop putting blue granules into its washing powder. Also, from the beloved Soviet times film about 2ndWW "4 tank crew members and a dog" Poland decided to cut away all Russian heroes. From now on the movie will be called "2 Polish tank boys and 1 Georgian tank boy." (Because unfortunately not only 1 tankist, but the dog there as well happened to be Russian.) France will take down its Eiffel tower, as it suspiciously resembles balalaika by shape so very much. And will re-write Charles Perro fairy-tales. From now on the main villain in the "Red Riding Hood" won't be the wolf, but instead a bear in the T-shirt with inscription "Russia" on the breast. Spain will prohibit concerts of Monserrat Caballier, because her outlines and scarves also resemble a lovely Matryoshka doll. Greece, where Russians are so fond of going for shopping tours to, after Greek-made fur-coats, will shave all its fur-coats bold! And the Greek government will make its popular singer Demis Russos to change the surname to Demis Georginos. Radical measures will be undertaken by Greenland powers, these will close the island for Russian sun-loving tourists entirely. USA as a sign of protest will call back home all its religious preachers of various "Tower" and other interesting religions. And will even do more - call back home all Colorado beatles eating Russian potatoes. The most scary sanctions will be applied by Ukraine. In a night time aviation raid Ukraine will throw over the Russian territories multiple portraits of its president Youshenko, that glow in the darkness. UK will shoot a sequel to the famous movie and will call it "A Georgian patient". USA will re-name its Westerns /movies into "Caucas-terns". First thing will be done a new fantastic thriller "A Georgia-man." Followed by "Rambo-5: The last Borjomi" and "Saving of the private Michael." And finally, as Russian intelligence service has reported, President Saakashvili decided to send to the NATO powers 10,000 bottles of the red Georgian wine. To warm them up by spirits a little bit - morally, as well as physically. Saakashvili's cunning idea behind is that "when heated - NATO will become expanding..." Russia, surely, decided not to wait passiveley while all these horrible scenarious get developing, and is planning to reply adequately. It will first work on some key-concepts re-naming. The Great Patriotic War from now on will be called "A Great Patriotic Operation on freeing Russian territorries from fascist-German peace-keepers." The Great Kulikov battle will be re-named into "Forcing mongol-tatars to peace in the Kulikov field." The painting "Ivan the Terrible is killing his son" will be re-named into "Ivan the Terrible conducting a row of actions on limiting the aggression." The famous painting "Cossacks are writing a letter to the Turkish sultan" will effectively become "Ukrainian Parliament is thinking how to help Saakashvili." The main novel of Leo Tolstoy will be called simply: "A Peacekeeping operation and Peace." As to Britain, in the nearest future Kremlin will send to London 500 balalaika-players, 1,500 wooden spoons clickers and an 8,000-group of winners of the national competition "Play, my accordion!". All these, with heavy out-of-tune musical instruments, will play in the streets of London. Also Russia has decided to warn USA: "If Georgia is taken into NATO, Russia will invite China into its Commonwealth of Independent States."

omar Ibrahim wrote:
A less assertive Russia means, not implies, a more assertive West! That has proved to be with a USA/Bush led West a catastophe to all with Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine/Israel the inevitable outgrowth of a reckless USA and a servile Europe! Should the West rehave a De Gaulle its cause might be less hopeless BUT no matter what Russia should return to the international arena as a major player for Russia's, the World's and the West's best interests!

Wim Roffel wrote:
I disagree with ms. Slaughter that Russia's response in Georgia was disproportionate. Russia had prevented a previous Georgian attack only a few months before by increasing its troops in Abkhazia. And it made much work of deterrence, including a recent military exercise near South Ossetia where it explicitly stated that they exercised how to get a lot of soldiers into South-Ossetia fast when needed. Given those extensive warnings Russia could not have stopped at the border of Georgia proper when it reacted to Georgia's attack. It would have been an open invitation to Georgia to try it again in a few months. Given that Russia's response was not disproporionate I don't think there is need to fear for Russian adventures in the Ukrain or else where. Russia has interests in the Ukrain just like the US has interests in many countries. But just like the US Russia will use diplomatic and economic pressure as its main diplomatic tools. I totally agree that we should have an international investigation into how the war started. I find it amazing that we don't even get an official report from the OSCE observers who were present and we have to do with what one of its members informally told the Spiegel. (This Spiegel article pointed to Georgia as the clear aggressor.) I am amazed to see someone advocate "freezing assets" in the Economist. Such an action has disastrous effects on the trust that is necessary for business relations. Slaughter mentions the "authoritarian trick" to "manufacture an external threat to whip up nationalist sentiment as a way of distracting the population from domestic problems". I think that this trick is used just as well by democratic governments. But I don't think it is right to accuse Russia of it. Sure, many Russians were better of under communism. But after communism came the deep decline of the Yeltsin years. Nowadays Russia is clearly on it way up again. So this would not be the time to expect such a distraction. I think we have to reserve our main criticism for the Western leaders who knew what mr. Saakashvili was up to and despite that proposed a Georgian membership of the NATO. That was highly irresponsible. As for mr. Blank, maybe he can also list all the occasions where the US did not keep its part of the appointments, for example by keeping basis in Central Asia. He can also list the American threats, including ms. Palin threatening with war. He would have to conclude that the US is much more aggressive.

pierinolapeste wrote:
As a journalist responsible for the foreign desk comments of my newspaper I absolutely share Trenin analisys. You cannot treat Russia like a poor relative, excluding them "de facto" from the strategic dialogue. Kosovo was simply a big mistake. And the "Humanitarian intervention" is a very dangerous Doctrine, as each minority is majority of another minority, in a classical chinese box game. Foreign policy is the art to deal with the "possible" not with the "desirable".

archaeologyUID: 2598252

刚看到的新闻，贴上来，:victory:
欧盟与前苏联6个加盟国缔结伙伴关系http://www.sina.com.cn  2009年05月08日10:52  中国新闻网
　　中新网5月8日电 据“中央社”报道，欧洲联盟27国与乌克兰、格鲁吉亚、白俄罗斯、亚美尼亚、阿塞拜疆、摩尔多瓦等6个前苏联加盟国的领袖和代表，7日在捷克首都布拉格举行高峰会，正式缔结“东部伙伴关系”。
　　不过，多位欧洲重要元首婉拒出席，却也让峰会显得相当冷清。
　　苏联解体后才独立的乌克兰等国家，此刻正处于政治与经济的转型期，局势相当不稳定。 然而，这些欧盟东部邻邦全都地处能源运输的要道，或蕴藏丰富的能源，一动一静关系欧盟的核心利益。
　　去年八月，俄罗斯和格鲁吉亚爆发严重的武装冲突，才让邻近的欧洲深受震撼。
　　随后，俄罗斯与乌克兰的天然气之争，更让身处寒冬的中东欧人民受冻，让欧盟惊觉到高加索局势和能源供应对欧洲安全的重要性。
　　欧盟轮值主席捷克总理塔波兰尼克(MirekTopolanek)在峰会结束的记者会上说，能良好治理、尊重人权，又能稳定区域情势的伙伴，事关欧盟的安全与繁荣。
　　面对俄罗斯批评欧盟与这些国家缔结伙伴关系，目的是扩大势力范围，塔波兰尼克回应说，欧盟推动“东部伙伴关系”(Eastern Partnership)不是针对任何国家，目的不是争夺影响力。
　　欧盟主管对外关系的执行委员费瑞罗-华德纳(Benita Ferrero-Waldner)也强调，不论是欧盟或俄罗斯，都能从邻国的稳定情势得利。
　　根据峰会结束后发布的联合声明，欧盟计划在这些前苏联共和国推广欧盟的法规标准，加速区域的整合，建立自由贸易区，同时逐步放宽入境管制，达成免签证的目标。
　　除了能源的合作外，欧盟还计划与这些国家定期召开会议，通过对话的方式，推动民主和法治。
　　这次峰会攸关欧盟东部边界的稳定，不过除了德国总理默克尔外，法国、英国、意大利、西班牙等其它欧洲大国的领导人，全都指派代表出席，使得峰会相当冷清，颜面无光的主人塔波兰尼克面对记者的一再质疑，显得有点恼羞成怒。
　　一般相信，这些国家刻意低调，除了不愿惹恼俄罗斯，也与法国等南欧国家宁愿扩大参与欧盟的另一睦邻计划“地中海联盟”(Union for the Mediterranean)，对“东部伙伴关系”兴趣缺缺有关。
　　德国国会外交委员会的资深议员维尔曼(Karl-Georg Wellmann)，日前在柏林的一场研讨会上，就对由波兰和瑞典主导的“东部伙伴关系”前景提出质疑。
　　他说，一向对莫斯科抱有戒心的东欧国家，拉拢前苏联共和国与欧盟接近，等于挖俄罗斯的墙角，势必引起莫斯科的反弹；没有俄罗斯一起坐在谈判桌上，不论是天然气的供应，或乌克兰、高加索地区的冲突和摩尔多瓦的领土问题，都不可能彻底解决。