issue157 行为类，第一次限时，没想到写这么烂，大家来打击我吧！

天青地白UID: 161876

看看牛人的作文，占座先

flyxwUID: 106489

to naiba: 因为我觉得，说科学领域没有价值观的影响是有点绝对了，举例如上。另外昨天有看到一个例子，就是说古希腊的人们其实早就掌握了。。的技术（具体偶想不起来了，好象是数学方面的，因为这方面那时后牛人好象很多），但是那时人们认为万物天造，不应该改变，所以一直没有应用。而且在一些民族，基于价值观的影响，在一些道德不容的方面是不会深入研究的。所以我认为科学领域的认识也不是完全客观的，但是要说清楚毕竟不容易，所以我觉得不绝对化的用词have less to do with 以及后面用仪器的精密来说明客观因素越来越少是避免绝对化的好办法——一点个人想法，不一定对啊，大家讨论讨论：）

to 李师兄（报复你喊我张。。呵呵）：今天怎么没有发新作啊？晚了哦，偶等不了了，明天回来补课：）

naiba369UID: 131655

observation 既有比较客观的”观察，观测，测量“，也有很主观的”评论，comment“，而笼统的讲observation 我觉的不好。

觉得有讨论的必要，“如何定义obversation ”

鬼谷子UID: 159645

改了一下，大家帮忙再看看吧

Issue157  
------题目------
There is no such thing as purely objective observation. All observation is subjective; it is always guided by the observer's expectations or desires.
------正文------
Ever since we opened our eyes we started observing the world around us, and through observation we made judgment, decision, and conclusion.  Then, what is the nature of observation?  Is observation objective or subjective?  There is no easy conclusion to this question.  I concede that in situations such as everyday life and art fields it is so, yet in other realms like science are not.  We have to see the both sides of the coin when judging an observation to be subjective or objective; otherwise, our observation of observations in itself would be too subjective.

Generally speaking, almost all the observations have something to do with desires, values, expectations, and other personal ideas of the observer, for it is essential nature of human beings to analyze and meditate what he or she observes in his or her own way of thinking.  As a matter of fact, the behavior of observing in common life is oriented by our spiritual and psychological forces which would bring the outcome of observation subjective colors.   It accounts for why the observations of the same incident vary from individual to individual.  When beholding a car accident, for instance, different people have different views; someone will have his own idea about who is responsible for the accident, yet view of others would contradict his judgment; some will feel worried and sympathetic about the one injured in the accident, while some consider only the brands and prices of the cars destroyed.  All these views are based on different observations which are guided by distinctive personal ideas of everyone.  The evidence as well as other similar cases in our everyday life demonstrates that no matter we acknowledge or not, subjective factors such as our desires, values, ideas, expectations and so forth play significant roles in our observation and thereby affect our observation to be more or less subjective.

Aside from it, in the realms of arts including literature, painting, music and the like, it is necessary and justifiable for the observer to employ their subjective expectations and desires unboundedly into the observation of the world and their works as well.  Art serve to reveal the inner impulses and spirits of the artists and convey them through artistic works.  On the contrary, objectivity is of no use in this realm.  In Impression: Sunrise, the famous painting of great impressionist Claude Monet we can see no objective reflection of real world but subjective interpretation of the artist; the same subjective interpretations appear as dominant forces in Guernica, the masterpiece of cubist Pablo Picasso and Persistence of Memory, work of surrealist Salvador Dali.  Hence, we see that only by using subjective view to observe the mundane world and then interpret observations into works could the essential nature and aim of art and the imagination and inspirations of artists be achieved and preserved.

Although I agree that subjective factors contribute greatly to our observation and make it subjective, there are other situations we should take into consideration.  In the domain of science, the world built on the foundation of objective, accurate, and complicated data collected in observations and researches, the observations have much less to do with individual desires and expectations.  It is the spirit and essence of science require the observer in any fields of this realm to be objective for the subjective desires and expectations would mislead the observation and even destroy the whole research.  Assuming that a scientist in a certain research observes according to his own desires and expectations, as a result, the data recorded by him would be inaccurate and unconvincing even distorted because it is likely that only the data accord with his ideas are collected while others are not.  Moreover, the advanced technologies and sophisticated schedules which scientific observers use in the researches help them to perform the objective observation.  As the case of research in human genome, nearly every step was planed beforehand, and industrial methods and machines were borrowed into the research, thus the probability of the scientists who are involved in and observe the research to be subjective is eliminated.

In the final analysis, whether the observation is objective or subjective rely largely on the situation of the observers and the circumstances of the objects being observed.  Observations in everyday life and art fields are subjective for the guidance of personal desires and expectations; while observations in science world are objective due to the assistance of technology.  Therefore, an overall consideration is necessary when judging the nature of observation; and no imprudent conclusions should be made before careful reflection all the conditions.

鬼谷子UID: 159645

对于科学的问题，我查了MW的observe，里面就把科学的观察单独分出来解释的
我觉得应该可以的
to张。。哦不。。flyxw，嘿嘿，我觉得你说的对，但是我说less to do 其实就不是绝对的啊
另外刚刚一直在改这篇来着，今天的还没写呢:o

naiba369UID: 131655

对于科学的问题，我查了MW的observe，里面就把科学的观察单独分出来解释的
我觉得应该可以的

1.从MW 的最主要的解释中，1，3 是“评论”，主观性比较强（同时也有客观性，我的意思是“更”）而2，是那种“科研中的测量”，客观性较强。
2，虽然是分开解释的，但我还是觉得，在你写个段ts 是，要前调这里的 observation 的general meaning，最好用个大家都熟悉的通用词代替之。种种解释的条目还都是在observation 下的。我觉的有必要细化，分类讨论。
3，MW 解释附上。

鬼谷子UID: 159645

to make a scientific observation on or of
我查的是observe，呵呵
你说的有道理，terminology的问题，是应该限定一下observation的范围的

天青地白UID: 161876

------摘要------
作者：寄托家园作文版普通用户 共用时间：45分3秒 557 words
------题目------
There is no such thing as purely objective observation. All observation is subjective; it is always guided by the observer's expectations or desires.
------正文------
Are all the observations subjective, as the speaker asserts? I concede that in some situations and circumstances it is so, yet others are not. We have to see both sides of the coin when judging an observation to be subjective or objective; otherwise, our observation of observations would be subjective. （开头简明扼要，赞一个！不过据小妹我所知，the sides of a coin这谚语是只有中国才有的，呵呵。美国人常用double-edged sword）

Generally speaking, almost all the observations have something to do with the values, ideas, and thoughts of the observer, for it is essential nature of human beings to analysis and mediate what he or she observes in his or her own way of thinking. As a matter of fact, the behavior of observing is oriented by our spiritual and psychological forces which would bring the outcome of observation subjective colors. It accounts for why the observations of the same incidence vary from individual to individual. When we behold a car accident, for instance, different people have different views; some one will have his own idea about who is responsible for the accident, yet view of others would contradict his judgment; some will feel worry and sympathetic about the one injured in the accident, while some consider only the brands and prices (for mending) of the cars destroyed. All these views are based on the distinctive observations of everyone. The evidence（s） as well as other similar cases in our everyday life demonstrates that no matter we acknowledge or not, subjective factors such as our desires, values, ideas, expectations and so forth play significant roles in our observation and thereby affect our observation to be more or less subjective.

Aside from it, in the realms of arts including literature, painting, music and the like, it is necessary and justifiable for the observer to employ their subjective ideas and desires unrestrainly(?)  into the observation of the world and their works as well. Art serve to reveal the inner impulses and spirits of the artists. According to common sense and our everyday experience, almost all the artistic works express the subjective ideas of the artists. Only by using subjective view to observe the mundane world and then interpret observations into works could the essential nature and aim of art and the imagination and inspirations of artists be achieved and preserved.(厉害的倒装句)

Under the circumstances I discussed above, I believe that, no purely objective observations exist. Although I agree that subjective factors contribute greatly to our observation and make it subjective, there are other situations we should take into consideration.

In the world of science, the world built on the foundation of objective, accurate, and complicated observations and researches, the observations have much less to do with subjective. It is the spirit and essence of science require the observer in any fields of this realm to be objective. Moreover, the advanced technologies and sophisticated schedules which scientific observers use in the researches help them to perform the objective observation. As the case of research in human genome, nearly every step was planed before hand, and industrial methods and machines were borrowed（用brought好点） into the research, thus the probability of the scientists who are（were） involved in and observe the research(and前后连接的成分觉得有些别扭) to be subjective is eliminated.

In the final analysis, whether the observation is objective or subjective rely largely on the situation of the observers and the circumstances of the object being observed. Therefore, no imprudent conclusions should be made before careful consideration of all the conditions.

没用颜色工具，难看了些，望鬼兄包涵！
修改不当之处多多包涵！

naiba369UID: 131655

楼上的“双刀客”xd 说的很好呀 ^_^, 这就叫研究性的写作，集体式的讨论。要大家的共同参与呀。我可是新人呀，我怕老呀^_^

我觉得，客观性无需在定义，1，没时间，基本上没有什么歧义，说明，点到即可。2，好像，ETS 不喜欢随便下定义这种写法，以咱们的水平下的定义可能太不全面了。

其实，你在论述中强调的是，科学领域应该要客观观察，可是是不是一定是客观观察，好像证明得不够充分啊。

1, “你”指的是谁？ 说明白，谢谢先！
2，“科学领域应该要客观观察”vs“是不是一定是客观观察”你似乎表述的不清楚，但就牵扯到“事实 （is）”和“倾向：应该/最佳（should)”的问题，具体看imong 特训 Chapter 1。4

flyxwUID: 106489

to 天青地白：

We have to see both sides of the coin when judging an observation to be subjective or objective; otherwise, our observation of observations would be subjective. （开头简明扼要，赞一个！不过据小妹我所知，the sides of a coin这谚语是只有中国才有的，呵呵。美国人常用double-edged sword）

双刃箭，好词！弱弱地问一句，是不是那句话可以改成：two edges of the sword，还是two effects of the two-edged sword?
to naiba and 双刀客：

2，“科学领域应该要客观观察”vs“是不是一定是客观观察”你似乎表述的不清楚，但就牵扯到“事实 （is）”和“倾向：应该/最佳（should)”的问题，具体看imong 特训 Chapter 1。4

其实，你在论述中强调的是，科学领域应该要客观观察，可是是不是一定是客观观察，好像证明得不够充分啊。

我想就事实与倾向的问题跟两位讨论一下，这也是我看追星特训 Chapter 1。4最puzzle的地方。借鬼谷子的这篇改后的习作来说，文中提到
Assuming that a scientist in a certain research observes according to his own desires and expectations, as a result, the data recorded by him would be inaccurate and unconvincing even distorted because it is likely that only the data accord with his ideas are collected while others are not.
显然指出如果scientists...就会有什么什么的问题，显然是在用“客观观察的好处”来说明“科学中有没有主观”的事实。所以偶觉得双刀客提到的这一点还是值得考虑的。问题就在于，是否fact就不能用（一点也不能提到）should?还是可以象鬼师兄那样加点进去？毕竟严格地扫除所有should 对偶来说残忍了一点，好象进一步地限制了偶的思维（本来就写不了多少的说），两位对此的观点和处理方法是什么，可以启发一下偶吗？

鬼谷子UID: 159645

我认为IS/SHOULD问题不能一概而论，而应该分为以下三种分别讨论。
1) 当IS问题不涉及到价值观时，IS问题和SHOULD问题无关，论证也不一样。
例：Issue 104: It is primarily through formal education that a culture tries to perpetuate the ideas it favors and discredit the ideas it fears.
应该讨论”formal education”是否是在” help a culture perpetuate the ideas it favors and discredit the ideas it fears”，以及是否仅有”formal education”这一个”primary”手段；而不应该讨论”formal education”是否应该” help a culture perpetuate the ideas it favors and discredit the ideas it fears”。
另一方面，如果论题是” Formal education should help a culture perpetuate the ideas it favors and discredit the ideas it fears.”就必须论证这样做的好处和坏处。
2) 当IS问题涉及到价值观且为判断句时，如“It is right/wrong that…”实际上等同于SHOULD问题（注意，我是说论证方法等同，而不是拿SHOULD作” Beg the question”）；
例：Issue184: "It is a grave mistake to theorize before one has data."
这个命题说” to theorize before one has data”是错误的，其言外之意就是”People should not theorize before one has data”。而且，两个命题的论证方法是一样的，都是论证” to theorize before one has data”的错误性和危害性。
3) 当IS问题涉及到价值观但不是判断句时，虽不等同于SHOULD问题，但最后还是要转化为SHOULD问题讨论的。
例：Issue68: "People make the mistake of treating experts with suspicion and mistrust, no matter how valuable their contributions might be."
应首先分析当今社会，”People make the mistake of treating experts with suspicion and mistrust, no matter how valuable their contributions might be"是否真的存在?然后再论证” treating experts with suspicion and mistrust, no matter how valuable their contributions might be”是否错误？这就转化为了问题2了。

我同意上面我引用的toplch的观点
should可以用，分情况来用

我觉得在科学的方面我首先并没有排除主观因素的影响，只是说影响较小
而我觉得写的其实也并不是很有倾向性的写法，
即使说有这种倾向，那是因为我并没有绝对的说在科学领域没有主观的存在
所以不是说科学家该倾向于怎么做，而是说大多数的情况是怎么做的，如果不这样会怎么样
我的意思是我说的事实导致了科学领域的客观性，不是说导致科学家客观观察的倾向，should客观观察。是我没表达清楚？
我还是觉得我没有涉及到IS 和SHOULD的问题，呵呵

我觉得should 的写法可以用的，但是要用的合适就不容易
而且fact我觉得也当然是可以用的，但是不应该用should来证明fact，可以通过推理来证明fact揭示了什么，支持了什么，只要不说应该是什么，可能是什么这样模糊的概念就可以吧。

我也不是很确定，听听大家的意见

天青地白UID: 161876

小柏芝two edges of the sword 是可以的，不过后面哪个嘛？？？呵呵，最好不那样用哈
鬼兄简直太牛了，唉再看看自己无语了

lakeqianUID: 157560

新概念上双刃剑用的是two-edged sword. 或twofold
to naiba369:
obervation 定义1是“遵守”的意思吧？？？？？？？observing a custom....
关于定义。。。没想好。。。

flyxwUID: 106489

to 鬼谷子：

should可以用，分情况来用...

明了：）
to 天青地白：
me too,呵呵