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发表于 2004-9-3 11:25:50 |只看该作者 |倒序浏览
Anyone can make things bigger and more complex. What requires real effort and courage is to move in the opposite direction-in other words, to make things as simple as possible.[issue25]
B2已修改
It may seem tempting to pursue the simplicity. But in practice we have no criterion for what is complex or simple and what we should strive for is what the things should be regardless of the apparent complexity and simplicity.

As a threshold matter, the criterion for the degree of complexity or simplicity is always an individual matter varying according to individual experience and knowledge. For chemists who get along with the complex formula in their life time, they may find the formula fairly simple and self-evident but in average people’s eyes they may be too complex to remember. Besides, a painting for example the self-portrait of Van Gogh may seem simple for the average people who can only see a man on the canvass, but in terms of artists, they can understand the use of color and fathom the hidden feeling judging from the eyes of Van Gogh. Therefore, the painting become a bunch of meaningful elements conveying ideas rather than a whole painting.  后来加的:By virtue of that there is no solitary criterion for complexity and simplicity, then it is imprudent to say anyone can make things bigger and more complex. (since some may deem things become complex and some consider otherwise)

What requires our effort is to simplify what needs to be simple and complicate what needs to be complex.(这句话想做主题句,但是还是表述不到位) In the field of natural science, too complex or too simple is neither desirable. Instead, scientists, the people dedicated to find out the objective world, should endeavor to discover the fact no matter it is complex or simple. After so many years of effort have been made only to find a simple equation E=mc^2 the matter-energy equation, one may think it is too simple to describe the abstruse relationship between the matter and energy beyond their concrete forms. But the result of researches such as the nuclear fission and fusion maintains that simple as it is the equation is the very link between matter and energy.Moreover, take the normal distribution for example, the outcome of calculation reveals the function is difficult to write and seems too complex to explain for simple random events such as the distribution of height and score. But it is just the complex function that can precisely dipict the simple phenomenon. Hence, no matter the appearance is complex or simple, scientists should endeavor to find out the objective truth behind the appearance.

In the domain of art, the artist should make effort to make artwork effective to convey what the artwork is designed to express. Da Vinci used to draw eggs as training. The object is so simple that we may not recognize the sketch as art. But as the painting is drew to imitate the eggs as precisely as possible, then Da Vinci is correct to pursue the true form and color of eggs though they may seem simple. On the other hand, when the artwork is made to reveal the complexity of the world it is justifiable for the artist to create a complex artwork. A famous Chinese painting namely Riverside Scene at the Pure Moon Festival drawn to reflect the buzzing market of Song Dynasty is made up of thousands of persons and the scenery along the riverside. Though the scroll painting stretching for several meters is complex, it accurately reflects the boom of the Song Dynasty. What the artist should hunt and make effort for is the meaning s/he wants to convey beyond the superficial complexity or simplicity.

In the field of business management, the regulation structure should be simple. The complex hierarchy of supervision means the mistrust between employees and employers. The meaningless complexity is only low effective with one person working and another watching. Therefore, what the enterpriser should do is too simplify the regulation structure. What deserves the effort is the simple regulation structure where most of the employees can work while few of them idle down watching. In short, the simplicity of regulation means effectiveness and vice versa.

To sum up, there is no criterion for complexity and simplicity and what we should do is to transcend superficial complexity or simplicity and to strive for what things should be—the objective description of the world, the precise conveyance of the meaning and the effective regulation structure.
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发表于 2004-9-3 11:50:28 |只看该作者
我觉得应该写的是人们的努力到底是简单了还是复杂了,并不是人们问什么努力去干什么,如果不看题目我觉得没什么问题啊。

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发表于 2004-9-3 12:04:14 |只看该作者
人们的努力到底是简单了还是复杂了
。。。不是努力简单还是复杂。努力分简单复杂吗??What “requires” real effort and courage is to 。。。是说努力的“目的”是什么或更明确,切题来说:什么需要努力。我的论点是需要努力的东西是按领域分:要了解世界本来面貌,或者有效传递等等

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地板
发表于 2004-9-3 12:16:20 |只看该作者
可我觉得重点不是什么需要我们努力,我们努力的目的。
题眼应该是人们所做的努力是使事物更简单还是更复杂。我觉得题目的第一句话就定了一个基调了,不能撇下不看只看第二句啊。个人意见。

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发表于 2004-9-3 12:27:56 |只看该作者
人们所做的努力是使事物更简单还是更复杂。我觉得题目的第一句话就定了一个基调了
我的观点是没有纯粹的复杂简单,复杂度是因人而异的。似乎B1后加一句话点一下前半句的错误更好。我就在原文加啦。后面写到了复杂简单也是指明了对谁而言的。应该没造成矛盾吧?

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发表于 2004-9-3 12:32:51 |只看该作者
哟。700贴了。庆祝一下^^
701 :D

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发表于 2004-9-3 12:49:21 |只看该作者
lakeqian不时考完了吗??还写??
寻10fall去费城的朋友~

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发表于 2004-9-3 12:58:18 |只看该作者
晕。。。9.8 8501~~~
正是关键时刻呢。

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发表于 2004-9-3 13:37:44 |只看该作者
最后讲business好像与主题的no criterion关系不大把...
lakeqian讲复杂度因人而异,这能不能算扣准题可真说不准阿......理由和上面的差不多。分析thredshold matter,就有点分析到另外一件事情上的嫌疑了。

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发表于 2004-9-3 13:40:43 |只看该作者
Anyone can make things bigger and more complex. What requires real effort and courage is to move in the opposite direction-in other words, to make things as simple as possible.issue25

It may seem tempting to pursue the simplicity. But in practice we have no criterion for what is complex or simple and what we should strive for is what the things should be regardless of the apparent complexity and simplicity.

As a threshold matter, the criterion for the degree of complexity or simplicity is always an individual matter varying according to individual experience and knowledge. For chemists who get along with the complex formula in their life time, they may find the formula fairly simple and self-evident but in average people’s eyes they may be too complex to remember. Besides, a painting for example the self-portrait of Van Gogh may seem simple for the average people who can only see a man on the canvass, but in terms of artists, they can understand the use of color and fathom the hidden feeling judging from the eyes of Van Gogh. Therefore, the painting become a bunch of meaningful elements conveying ideas rather than a whole painting. 后来加的:By virtue of that there is no solitary criterion for complexity and simplicity, then it is imprudent to say anyone can make things bigger and more complex. (since some may deem things become complex and some consider otherwise)(觉得前面论证都环环相扣,最后一句总结做的不好,我们没有一个关于复杂的标准,所以说我门可以将事情弄复杂是很imprudent 的?这点如果作为整篇文章的中心句是很好的,可以作为这一段,欠妥,毕竟这段只是单单论证了为什么说没有统一标准的问题,还没有到后半句。)

What requires our effort is to make things as they should be. In the field of natural science, too complex or too simple is neither desirable. Instead, scientists, the people dedicated to find out the objective world, should endeavor to discover the fact no matter it is complex or simple. After so many years of effort have been made only to find a simple equation E=mc^2 the matter-energy equation, one may think it is too simple to describe the relation between matter and energy.(太简单一至于不能。。。为什么没有说清楚) Moreover, take the normal distribution for example, the outcome of calculation reveals the function is difficult to write and seems too complex to explain for everyday phenomenon. But the fact is here to stay although it is difficult.(这句什么意思)尽管事实很复杂但他还是存在着?  Hence, no matter the truth is complex or simple, scientists should endeavor to find out the truth for their goal of objective description.

In the domain of art, the artist should make effort to make artwork effective to convey what the artwork is designed to express. Da Vinci used to draw eggs as training. The object is so simple that we may not recognize the sketch as art. But as the painting is drew to imitate the eggs as precisely as possible, then Da Vinci is correct to pursue the true form and color of eggs though they may seem simple. On the other hand, when the artwork is made to reveal the complexity of the world it is justifiable for the artist to create a complex artwork. A famous Chinese painting namely Riverside Scene at the Pure Moon Festival drawn to reflect the buzzing market of Song Dynasty is made up of thousands of persons and the scenery along the riverside. Though the scroll painting stretching for several meters is complex, it accurately reflects the boom of the Song Dynasty. What the artist should hunt and make effort for is the meaning s/he wants to convey beyond the superficial complexity or simplicity.

In the field of business management, the regulation structure should be simple. The complex hierarchy of supervision means the mistrust between employees and employers. The meaningless complexity is only low effective with one person working and another watching. Therefore, what the enterpriser should do is too simplify the regulation structure. What deserves the effort is the simple regulation structure where most of the employees can work while few of them idle down watching. In short, the simplicity of regulation means effectiveness and vice versa.

To sum up, there is no criterion for complexity and simplicity and what we should do is to transcend superficial complexity or simplicity and to strive for what things should be—the objective description of the world, the precise conveyance of the meaning and the effective regulation structure.
(B 1 后面结尾偏离段落中心,B 2 没有将意思表达清楚, B 3 作的不错! B 4 没有展开。
开头结尾很到位!)
分成三个领域讲,这点我倒是没想到)
走过去,前面是个天!
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发表于 2004-9-3 13:58:57 |只看该作者
个人认为在:没有统一标准和是否将事情弄复杂上不可直接算成因果,
            对自己而言是复杂了,虽然对别人而言是简单的,但是结果还是可以将这件事变复杂的,也可以再对自己而言的相对复杂,尽管别人看来还是简单,但是却支持的题目,所以得出可否变复杂是卤莽的恐怕证据不足。
             除非是否变复杂都要证明给别人看看,总要和别人的标准比一高低。
             其实不要第一点,另一条观点领导着后三个领域就够了,而且有时间将最后一个做足。 B 1 很累赘!
走过去,前面是个天!
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发表于 2004-9-3 21:30:58 |只看该作者
我基本同意again的意见.本题是要讨论"到底是该把事情弄简单还是搞复杂",你的立论, 我个人感觉有跑题的嫌疑.追求简单是正确的,而事情本身的复杂与否是事情的情形所决定的.最复杂的事情也有相对而言比较简单的处理方法.我觉得这是你所犯的错误.

What “requires” real effort and courage is to 。。。是说努力的“目的”是什么或更明确

你的语法分析似乎有点偏差.整个句子的翻译应该是:"每个人都能把事情搞大搞复杂.而真正需要努力的却是相反的—即要把事情越简单化越好"

我的提纲
1.开头: 基本同意.简单说明一下,追求简单是人类的本性, 简单可以让生活避免繁复,让科学避免深奥,让生产提高效率.
2.b1:在自然科学领域:简单是科学家永远的追求, eg.爱迪生用很简单的"容器量水"测体积,而他的助手傻乎乎的用微积分去算.
3.b2: 生产生活领域: 其归根结底的目的是让人的生活更简单, 从而更舒适.eg.洗完机的发明
4.b3: 但是有时候, 人们在追求简单的时候, 不经意之间反而将事情弄的复杂了,这是应该避免的.

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发表于 2004-9-4 00:06:33 |只看该作者
整个句子的翻译应该是:"每个人都能把事情搞大搞复杂.而真正需要努力的却是相反的—即要把事情越简单化越好"
是啊。但是我的观点是:我们应该透过简单或复杂的表象,努力让事物有效,(或说该简单的简单该复杂的复杂)

你的立论, 我个人感觉有跑题的嫌疑.追求简单是正确的,而事情本身的复杂与否是事情的情形所决定的.最复杂的事情也有相对而言比较简单的处理方法.我觉得这是你所犯的错误。。。。

这是论点的不同而已。事情并不总该简单化。有时事情是复杂的,处理起来也复杂,我们要花时间复杂的解决复杂的问题:例如作天气预报,气象情况很复杂,我们要注意考虑所有因素,并精确计算,任何偏差都会导致蝴蝶效应。

没有统一标准和是否将事情弄复杂上不可直接算成因果
不是因果,是釜底抽薪吧。标准都没有就无所谓变得复杂或简单。
至于:觉得前面论证都环环相扣,最后一句总结做的不好,我们没有一个关于复杂的标准,所以说我门可以将事情弄复杂是很imprudent 的
也是同样道理吧。没标准就下结论算是imprudent吧。

最后讲business好像与主题的no criterion关系不大把。。。
我的主题不是no criterion。

总而言之是釜底抽薪+否定追求表面的简单化或复杂化

哎。。。为什么大家都觉得跑题时我却不觉得呢。。。。

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发表于 2004-9-4 00:44:34 |只看该作者
B2改了一下。但愿说明白点。原来写的时候断断续续因此。。。居然少写了一句话。。。sorry!!!

另,至于again的:题眼应该是人们所做的努力是使事物更简单还是更复杂。似乎没注意事实Vs倾向问题吧。
What requires real effort and courage is to 应该是有倾向的,what require=we should do what...
题目不是说人们努力的后果是什么,而是应该是什么或说“需要努力的(by naiba)”。这个问题如同issue30 the prupose of tech "should" be....可能大家没看到过那个贴子。

个人觉得B4应该还算论证到位了,有一句话例子:is only low effective with one person working and another watching.其实我真正满意的只是B4。。。呵呵。试图模仿花旱冰的那篇argu范文的主体的最后一段。。。算是言简意赅吧。。。

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发表于 2004-9-4 01:36:35 |只看该作者
不好意思我来的太晚了。我又看了。
我觉得b1段那样改了一下,还是好了很多的。
但是b2段complicate what needs to be complex 这句话本身就很让人费解。我觉得是那些复杂的东西由于本身复杂,我们只能用比较复杂的方法进行解决。这是比解决简单的东西的方法复杂,但不是我说我们需要把他搞复杂。看上去复杂的方法已经是最简单的了。

b3 我想说的是同样一个鸡蛋,有的人两下就画好了,而且很传神。但有的人画了半天,费了很大力,就是无法表现。而这种简单和复杂之中需要的是抓住重点,突破关键解决问题。我想这是题目所讨论的问题。画家画了很多的画本身就是复杂了,而不是这种复杂的背后体现的是传达了思想之类的。

个人意见,不知我说明白了没有。可以这么自如的用英文表达很是不错了,我还差得太远了。句子很精练阿

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