美国三年无效经验，应该回国重新开始吗

gjlxdz9300UID：3676460

如题，硕士毕业以后在美国一个小公司工作至今（非码农），做了三年边缘化的工作，这段经历并没有让我积累很多有效的经验，三年过去了没学到什么有用的东西，更谈不上解决身份。身边认识的人大部分婚绿了，我要走职业绿卡的话难度太高，甚至80%的可能根本没办法绿，还不如直接认清现实回国，及时止损。最近对未来的发展更迷茫了，已经28岁了，在美国耗了最宝贵的三年，身份问题没能解决，职业发展方向也模糊不清，觉得人生很失败，求大家给一些建议。

本人背景：普通985经济学本科，美Top10经济学硕士，毕业后进了东部某农村一家不知名买方做quantitative analyst至今整三年。公司很小，大概160人左右(我在的office不到30人)，AUM+AUA 共$80 billion左右。虽然title看上去是做quant research，但我的工作和这个基本没什么关系，我大部分时间在做implementation(把code从其他软件transfer到R里)，用R写Shiny App，用SSRS做报告等等。分析，建模的hard skill完全没有机会锻炼。组里就三个人，老板，我，还有一个美国男生，建模一直都是老板自己做，并没有教我们的意思，我俩就负责给他下数据，老板模型建好了我们替他跑报告，做Shiny App。

三年过去了，工资一分没涨(不到11)，最重要的是我觉得自己没有进步，每天学不到什么东西，这种无效经验在跳槽的时候也没有优势，感觉我的工作随便一个人培训一下都能做，公司也没有晋升机制，更不要提明确的发展方向，每天都觉得自己浑浑噩噩的，做的都是机械化的，边缘化的工作。前几天老板让我做网页，我又不是码农，继续这样犹豫晃悠下去，越来越不知道自己在干什么，能干什么，以后要朝什么方向发展，人生也就注定完蛋了。三年的时间就这么过去了，很后悔没有早点跳槽离开。

最近开始投简历，但还是很迷茫，不确定自己能投什么岗位，五花八门的职位都投过，但skill set都不一样，准备起来毫无针对性。金融，数据，编程稍微都会一点点，但都是皮毛，面试被问到专业的问题就答不上来了。quant要求C++但完全没经验，数据科学家的职位自己的学历和经验也不对口，投行咨询我的背景感觉也不太行。因此只能投一些入门级别的analyst，大部分也都是小公司，感觉三年的经验打水漂了。一直很羡慕那些在投行，咨询的人，他们一般有相对清晰的职业规划，大公司晋升机制也透明，积累几年经验以后跳槽到私募、对冲、资管、科技，都能有不错的发展。因此想问一下大家，我现在的背景想重新开始还有机会吗，我该从哪些方面努力来找到适合自己的方向和机会呢。

目前想到以下选择，按可操作性，成功概率依次降低排序：

1）跳槽到稍大的公司再积累2-3年经验，申请Top MBA项目，以此为跳板进入投行，咨询，科技行业
2）裸辞回国重新开始找工作。这个选项还不如一毕业直接回国，现在不是应届生，经验不吃香不对口，但感觉总比在这个小公司耗着浪费生命强，不知道是不是我想法太天真了。
3）再申请一个美/英的金融/统计硕士，以此为跳板申请一个比较好的商科相关phd项目4）彻底转行做码农，放弃之前学的东西有一点遗憾，但现实就是很残酷
5）再申请一个美/英的金融/统计/金工硕士，应届毕业找工作

能想到的就这么多了，希望大家给我一些建议，有其他的选项也欢迎补充。因为年龄也不小了，不知道还有没有重新开始的机会，目前就是想选一个好的职业方向，以后能有机会进入大平台打磨发展。谢谢大家了~

cheesechanUID：3505689

the title sounds good, so should be still not too bad. there is nothing really called useless experience, it is more about how you leverage it.

the problem you have now is not mainly location (that's a question too), but industry and role.
the very first key question is: what you wanna be? for example:

- software engineer: go do a CS master (part time online / on campus if you wanna relocate), prepare leetcode and whatever core technical skills, apply (your choice 4)
quant dev = software engineer using C++ in financial industry, a subset of your choice (4), so it is not something you can really go for it right now.

- still quant analyst in finance: actually you should have got some more tools in your tool box in the past 3 years outside the need of your job after work. look into what is needed in the market (math/stat, and the tools, probably you have to pick up python and etc....), probably something in FE or DS (you can do a lot of preparation by yourself, e.g. online course / degree, kaggle, and etc, topic probably is something like various ML, data analytics, big data, cloud platform, visualization, NLP / text mining, optimization, various QFin models.....)

- data scientist: the skillset gap is not small either. check what is needed. you need to do tons of online course (MOOC or etc), or even a DS master (economics doesn't teach enough stat/econometrics stuffs, and even you take quite some, econometrics class are mostly far from updated enough for DS stuffs which is origin from the tech side (CS , and the stat, and then econometrics)). The tools used can be quite different, quite some news tools and ML model, big data stuffs is needed there somehow.

- another 金融/统计/金工硕士. here is two paths actually, finance vs stat/FE.
1) pre-experience finance master is not a good idea for you in general. you have three year of experience in finance already, and if you want to have a general business/finance education, go for some post-experience MiF / MBA. consider something in UK or places other than US for the cost and visa issue.
2) stat/FE master: this depends on if you wanna be a quantitative analysis in financial industry / be a data scientist. if so, I would say you should have start doing one two years ago (becuase econ master is in general not practical enough for professional work purpose in finance and data, it is not like something really economics like some roles in central banks / think tank or etc...). but of course, it is never too late. consider a part time one if you need the income and wanna stay in US, and a full time UK/Canada/whatever country if you wanna work there.

- one question here is what do you mean by 大的公司再积累2-3年经验? what kind of company? something similar like asset management or in financial industry most likely i guess? and then what role? a quantitative one? that back to the point above. a business / general role? that means you also "放弃之前学的东西有一点遗憾", not to mention how to compete with other local people and how to find a company to sponsor your working visa. This is something not likely to happen in US given you dont even get one from your current quantitative one.and "以此为跳板进入投行，咨询，科技行业" is also far from easy. the previous working experience are viewed more and more important for an MBA nowadays, and thus switching to ibank / consulting / tech can be much more difficult than you can imagine, especially you are an international who need visa sponsor.

- forget about applying a PhD. you are from a top 10 US econ master, if you want a PhD in business, you have applied that successfully already.

- resigning without new offer is a bad idea in general. no to mention 裸辞回国重新开始找工作 is even more horrible choice given the current market condition.

gjlxdz9300UID：3676460

cheesechan 发表于 2021-11-10 01:51
the title sounds good, so should be still not too bad. there is nothing really called useless experi ...

非常感谢前辈的详细分析和回复！读完对我很有启发和帮助！

关于选项(1)。是的，我提到“大的公司积累2-3年经验”，指比较大型的asset management公司，例如PIMCO, BlackRock, Fidelity etc. 或者其他比较知名的金融公司。当然以我目前的经验想要进入这些公司做quantitative analyst难度极高，但顶尖的MBA项目似乎比较倾向于招有大公司工作背景的人，所以如果能在类似的大公司再工作两年，即使不是quantitative role是不是也可以增大Top MBA的录取概率？虽然不知道我的背景有没有希望，但未来还是想试着申请美国M7或者欧洲 (牛剑/LBS/HEC) 的MBA项目，如果最后能申到这些学校的MBA，那毕业之后以此为跳板进入香港的投行/咨询/资管行业有希望吗？

关于选项(3)，有读金融或统计Phd的想法主要是因为如果想要去大型买方公司或者大投行的asset management部门，甚至一些知名hedge fund做quantitative analysis相关工作，我目前的背景和经验可能性为0，再读一个硕士好像也不太够，因为他们招的人似乎大部分是来自math/stat/CS专业的博士。另外也看到有商科博士毕业直接去咨询行业做consultant的例子，所以就想这可能也是一个备选项。毕业后没有直接申请Phd in business主要因为硕士期间GPA很低(3.3), 申到好学校的希望很渺茫。

我目前在美国的身份是H1B第一年，但是没有绿卡仍然面临transfer工作RFE的风险，而且未来通过职业绿卡解决身份除去漫长的排期，也有不确定的风险，万一不成功再想换国家或回国就太晚了。大家都说如果最终要回国的话不如尽早回去寻找机会重新开始，也许趁着年轻努力一把还是有希望的。这也是我比较纠结的一个方面。

权衡所有可能性，目前性价比最高的选择大概是读一个DS/stat的master。因为已经有CFA的背景，感觉再读一个finance master不如去学一些更practical的知识和技能，而读mfe做quant一方面竞争力比不上理工phd，另一方面在就业方面似乎也要比data scientist难一些 (如果想法不准确请前辈指点）。接下来大概率还是要读一个硕士来fill the gap, 不知道part-time的DS/stat相较于full time在找工时的区别会不会很大，另外对于能不能申请到好的项目有一些担心。

cheesechanUID：3505689

gjlxdz9300 发表于 2021-11-10 06:38
非常感谢前辈的详细分析和回复！读完对我很有启发和帮助！

关于选项(1)。是的，我提到“大的公司积累2 ...

(1) 其實很看年景, 好的話, 這類MBA (oxbridge/HEC說不說得上是top MBA is a question itself)的確能place你去香港. 但是如果你有比较大型的asset management公司，例如PIMCO, BlackRock, Fidelity 這個級別的工作經驗, 直接申請都可能行了, 不一定用得著花錢花時間去MBA. 要是這類你直接申香港的申不上, 讀了MBA後申不申得上也是疑問. timing is crucial.

the question here is not if a MBA can place you back in HK ibank / consulting / AM or not. The questions are:
I/ can you get a job in those company?
II/ do you want a non-quantitative finance career path?


(3) 不是最搶手的那堆公司的核心岡, master是夠的 (but need to be a good one as it is competitive). (你現在也申不上math/stat/CS专业的博士.) 人家MFE畢業出來搶的那堆便是了.  至於說读mfe做quant一方面竞争力比不上理工phd, 那是的, 但其實DS也是, 不過DS比較新興, 競爭少一點而矣, just like MFE before 08. 之後DS成熟了也會是現在FE這個樣子, 就是master的會經常被phd搶了位置, 所以要趁早有自己的expertise那就不怕了)
當然你不一定是FE, DS類現在也有機會 (and yes, a bit better than FE now. but it depends on industry. nowadays quite some MFE add a lot of ML/DS content, so it is more focus on fina application, while DS can be more flexible).
為了業界工作讀business school PhD is a bad idea in general, unless you want to target for a role that PhD is near a must (e.g. thats a big plus for FE/DS, but not for consulting in general, so you need a STEM PhD actually). ROI不行, 而且你申不申得上都也是問題.


(location) US / China / whatever location is your own choice. if you wanna move, better do it now / within 2 to 3 years, before early 30s. 但是這個是選擇, 而本身沒有一個on track的career path才是大問題. of course these two issue are correlated by themselves too.

just for example, if you want to get a non-quantitative role in a bigger financial firm in US, you can leverage your CFA, your current working experience, your duke econ degree title (not the content, forget about that), you can go to MBA later too, the problem here is about US working status (as it is soft one, not likely able to stay in US afterwards). changing to another country is also less likely (still possible, and not impossible if you study there), and the problem of getting a job in China is how much your US experience is valuable. These kind of business / general finance experience are not too transferable across systems.

another example is, if you wanna be a DS/FE, the problem you have now is that you don't have the skillset. if you wanna in:
US: the problem is about visa again. tech firms are more likely to sponsor that (not quite sure about big banks), but if you wanna go to tech firm, changing industry itself is challenging.
developed world other than US: the question is about how you can have access to that job market....probably studying in the target country can be a good solution.


(part time vs full time study) there is not significant difference in job market in general, but if:
- you wanna job graduate program / apply to internship (this can be significant if you want to switch industry)
- you need the experience or income alongside with your job
- you need the study as a stepping stone to relocate

in additional, you may consider a master in CS with some ML/Data content, way better than a stat only one.

gjlxdz9300UID：3676460

cheesechan 发表于 2021-11-10 18:13
(1) 其實很看年景, 好的話, 這類MBA (oxbridge/HEC說不說得上是top MBA is a question itself)的確能plac ...

谢谢前辈的回复！我3-5年内的计划和目标是：在不牺牲未来职业的前提下可以有回国的选项，就是前辈所提到的, to be more transferable across systems, 那么即便最终没能留在美国，积累的相关工作经验也足够place我去国内或者香港比较好的公司和岗位接着发展，另外薪水不会因为经验不匹配而打过多的折扣。

我有一个问题，前辈所提到的quantitative finance role，does it specifically refer to “quant” jobs targeting MFE students who want to work in hedge funds? 还是说也包括其他介于general finance和quant之间的工作类型？比如我看到有许多大买方对quantitative analyst所要求的的skill set没有真正quant那么高，不要求用C++做量化策略，但相比普通financial analyst多了编程，financial modeling, 数据分析的要求。这种介于中间类型的岗位是我想走的career path之一(应该算quantitative finance career？)。如果选择了这个path，想进美国稍微大一点的买方，读一个part-time CS master有希望吗？如果还有其他提升的办法也请前辈指点。最后就是这个path以后有可能跳到较大的香港AM或国内资管公司吗？

另一条path是转行做DS，如果不能一步到位去tech公司，就先在金融公司或者fin tech积累经验，然后再努力跳tech。如果是这个path，也要读一个master，CS machine learning track足够吗。

最后就是这两条路的career ceiling，行业以及整个大环境下的发展前景哪个更好些呢？在美国普通人又是非native在买方根本不可能往上走太多，DS在这方面好一些，但回国发展前景似乎比不上美国。我身边所有非CS/stats 的同学朋友，最后全部都转了DS，极个别转了CS，就只有我还留在所谓的金融行业，结果就是和他们的薪资待遇差距是越来越大了, 所谓的选择比努力更重要，要选择一个对的赛道真的好难

cheesechanUID：3505689

gjlxdz9300 发表于 2021-11-11 01:05
谢谢前辈的回复！我3-5年内的计划和目标是：在不牺牲未来职业的前提下可以有回国的选项，就是前辈所提到的 ...

我講的這個across system只包括了同一陣型之間的不同國家的切換, e.g. 美/加/英/歐之間的切換, 而不是和共同富裕後的中国之間的切換. 要能在自由世界+國家社會主義陣型同時混的好好的這個選項的昂貴已經以肉眼可見的速度脹, 估計唯一還算可行的是碼農類. 以你的背景和行業來講, 我認為"在不牺牲未来职业的前提下可以有回国的选项"有點不太現實.

"还是说也包括其他介于general finance和quant之间的工作类型？"that's arguable, but let's include it here for discussion. master in DS / CS with ML will be quite useful. the choice depends on what exact direction you want. I think you should be (or learn) able to check what skillset is in need in the market (and why), and what kind of degree / education is available in the market (there are not that many choice in the market anyways)


I think the key problem here is: which country you want to be in after, say 10 years?

If it is US, the upside is $$$, and the risk is you don't get a green card, and will either suffer a salary cut if you go back to China (door will be closed that moment, and 996 035 issue), or have to relocate to other country when you are in the mid-30 (personal issue + heavy cost).

If it is China, say you believe 共同富裕/集中力量 and whatever CCP approach will work well, I think a better idea will be seeking a job in China now while still working in US, and go back when you get a good enough offer.

If it is another developed world country, the upside is it is less risky towards the PR in general, but most likely the salary will be lower than that in the US. quite likely you may need a full time master (e.g. in UK / Canada / ... whatever target country) to make this move, so it maybe a good idea to do a CS / FE / DS master in the coming one or two years before being too old (某些計分制會看年齡的)