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- 声望
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发信人: zzwanforever (zigzag zephyr), 信区: EconBiz
标 题: 美国学生对于牛津剑桥在他们心目中地位的讨论！（超长版）
发信站: BBS 大话西游站 (Wed Apr 27 04:04:14 2005), 站内
于偶然的机会在USNEWS的FORUMS上发现的！打开下面链接后从第33帖开始读！绝对值得一看：）
http://forums.prospero.com/n/mb/ ... ad&msg=15949.27
同时为了方便大家阅读，特粘贴如下！
我本人其实也有同样的困扰，同时有牛津MSC的AD和美国几所大学的全奖，前一段时间为了选校着实费尽了心思……
From: GMan7777 4/3/2003 10:48 am
To: pbohec (33 of 47)
15949.33 in reply to 15949.32
Why would anyone choose Cornell or Columbia over Oxford? I always believed that Oxford was on the same level as Harvard and Princeton. Any thoughts on this?
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From: shockawe1 4/3/2003 12:25 pm
To: GMan7777 (34 of 47)
15949.34 in reply to 15949.33
I think you arent that well informed about the UK grad school scene. Oxford and Cambridge (Oxford in particular) are coasting on their billion year old reputation. they severely lack funds, and most UK universities lack top class facilities. Many of their top faculty have run off to the US, where federal and private funding is plentiful. Especially in the engineering and other fields where specilised equipment is required, the UK universities have been found lacking. 50 years ago, Oxford/Camb were on equal level with Harvard/Yale etc. Now, OX/Cam might be ranked around 20-ish in the the US rankings. they are still good for fields like literature, etc., but the drastically diminishing UK funding has had a profound affect on the graduate research output. I think the Rhodes scholarship has now become sort of a joke...why would a Harvard/Yale/etc grad head all the way over to Oxford for a 1 year study ( a potentially inferior university too). It should be the other way around now...UK students being given the chance to study at some of the worlds leading universities, right here in the US of A.
http://education.guardian.co.uk/oxbridge/article/0,5500,561865,00.html
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From: GMan7777 4/3/2003 5:56 pm
To: S2000GT (35 of 47)
15949.35 in reply to 15949.31
Cornell is way better than columbia in virtually all areas of study despite what the rankings may tell us. Columbia is over rated. However, given the choice between cornell and Oxford, I would definately choose Oxford. Oxford is to the rest of the world what MIT and Harvard is to the United States (though Oxford is also a huge name in the United States). Oxford will get your foot in the door on many occasions and, I believe, is better respected, as far as academic reputation is concerned, than Cornell and, especially, Columbia.
I beg to differ on how you understate the importance of the reputation of schools one attends. It is clear to me that the right school on your resume can get you the job (especially if you did very well at the school).
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From: GMan7777 4/3/2003 7:00 pm
To: shockawe1 (36 of 47)
15949.36 in reply to 15949.34
Thanks for the info on the UK educational system. However, most people, including very prominent figures in the US, regard Oxford as comparable to Harvard, MIT, and Princeton. Whether the university is in a steady decline is questionable since it has been around for nearly 1000 years (and no, that is not an exageration)....in that 1000 years Oxford, I have read, has experienced three golden ages (i.e. times when the university's reputation was extremely high and it produced prominent mathematicians and the like) one of which it finds itself in the midst of at this very moment. In the last 20 or so years a nontrivial number of steele prize winners came from oxford. Oxford has been around for so long.....it is bound to be around for many years to come.
With regard to your ridiculous and somewhat humourous statement that Oxford would be at about #20 if it was ranked along with US schools I can only say that such a statement reflects YOUR OWN ignorance on the "...UK grad scene...". The link you provided me with provided an interesting look at Oxford but recall the following quote:
"...Oxford is slipping behind Harvard..."
So let's see, slipping behind harvard makes it stand at around #20 in the United States....that is logic that certainly boggles my mind as Harvard, I thought, was ranked number 1 in the US by USNEWS on many occasions and in many areas of specialization. I personally would choose Oxford over any US schools that are ranked worse than 5th place (if i was choosing on reputation alone, that is). Even if Oxford is having troubles now, its long standing history, which is common to only four or five universities in the world, gives me confidence in its ability to pull itself out of any trouble it is facing. Clearly, Oxford on your resume will most often be akin to a Harvard, Princeton, or MIT on your resume in the minds of the majority of US academics and job interviewers. Oxford is as good as solid gold on your resume....its long history of academic excellence precludes any diminish in its world-renowned reputation. The fact that very prominent members of US and British society have either attended or encourage their kids to attend Oxford is an attestment to that fact.
And by the way, students from Harvard, MIT, and Princetone STILL DO go off to Oxford with their Rhodes scholarships. That certainly can't be construed as bad news for Oxford can it? Clearly, if Oxford were on the steep decline you believe it is in, why would students from top US schools EVEN CONSIDER going there (even if the education is fully funded)? Obviously, Oxford is a much better educational institution that you seem to believe.
From: shockawe1 4/3/2003 7:11 pm
To: GMan7777 (37 of 47)
15949.37 in reply to 15949.36
I believe that the students goto Oxford on those Rhodes Scholarships just for the sake of experiencing a different culture, and for having been chose a "Rhodes Scholar" which is a prestigious title to hold. No doubt, around 30 years ago, the education was valued as well...but now, leading academic scholars and researchers are in the US and not the UK, and there is no reason to step out of the US to go and study in the UK. More to the point, these same Rhodes scholars go to Oxford for a masters degree....and rarely will they continue there for a Phd. Infact, 99% of them come back and do a Phd in the US, if they intend to do one.
Its not only about Oxford. Other "leading" UK universities have drastically downgraded too. LSE, the former economics powerhouse, is a shadow of its former self. It cant even be compared to Wharton, or Sloan, or Chicago. Imperial College, the no.1 engineering and sciences school in the US, would be lucky to compare itself with UIUC or GaTEch interms of facilities and research output, let alone MIT.
Sure, Oxford has been around for a long time, and is still considered prestigious...but its failure is due to the British governments archaic handling of matters and mindset in general. UK in general has become quite complacent, and relies on the US more than ever. They lack the creativity and original thinking that once made them the envy of the world. I think you also should be aware that Cambridge is "taking lessons" from MIT on how to inculcate the culture of silicon valley in its own version of the famed district. Once upon a time, OxBridge taught the world...now the same institutions are being led by the US powerhouses.
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From: GMan7777 4/3/2003 7:45 pm
To: shockawe1 (38 of 47)
15949.38 in reply to 15949.37
I have a reason to be biased toward Oxford, I suppose: I have been admitted to Oxford's MsC program in mathematics and the foundations of computer science. I have also been admitted to the following programs:
UCLA (MA in mathematics)
NYU (MS in mathematics)
CUNY Graduate Center (PhD in mathematics without financial support)
I have my heart set on Oxford because of its big name recognition. I consider my acceptance there to be similar to an acceptance to a top 3 US school. Where would you go if you were in my shoes? Clearly, 1000 years of academic excellence will likely not be struck down in a matter of 10, 20, or 30 years.......I have the impression that a large number of people in the United States hold Oxford in very high regard as they would a Princeton or Harvard. I am also under the impression that upon completing my MsC at Oxford, I will be flooded with interviews from top companies and will likely get into a top PhD program in the United States. What do you think?
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From: shockawe1 4/3/2003 8:40 pm
To: GMan7777 (39 of 47)
15949.39 in reply to 15949.38
In your case, CUNY simply doesnt compare. However, I believe that NYU is extremely strong in Mathematics, and with a financial aid offer, can be comparable to an Oxford admit. Oxford ofcourse was and still is strong in Maths, but I would personally choose NYU because its Courant Institute is world reknowned, and because NYC is a LOT better than the Oxford (city).
Regarding the UK universities, a large number of my relatives are UK educated and many still goto UK schools...however, some of them have continued their graduate studies in the US, and have found the difference to be comprehensive, especially at the top end universities. Other good UK universities like York, Edinburgh, Manchester, UCL,etc are still good choices for studies, but they simply cannot compare with multi-million grants that the top US private universities and the research public universities get. For ex: the university of Wisconsin-madison itself is better than over 85% of the UK universities, and is a research giant which the UK would be proud to have. Its resources are tremendous, and one of my cousins did his Phd in Engineering from there, after a Bachelors from Imperial College, UKs top rated Eng. institute. The difference was huge, and the faculty quality and research work was a LOT better. This is circa 1995.
Good luck in your career, and hope you make a wise choice. If still not convinced, you can goto England and check out the environment for yourself. And then comeback to the USA and compare. I am sure you will agree that UK, though still a worthy land of education opportunities, has seen better days.
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From: S2000GT 4/3/2003 10:11 pm
To: GMan7777 (40 of 47)
15949.40 in reply to 15949.35
You can try convince yourself all you want how good Oxford is. But before you do so, let me give you a few pointers, I am an international student now doing my BEng in the UK. I didn't even bothering applying to Oxford or Cambridge for post graduate study. (I've been offered places in Stanford and MIT this fall) Their strengths lie in the few areas such as: the Arts, History, Pure Sciences, Law, Political Science etc. These are very "traditional areas". I think Yale is probably the best US equivalent.
And Oxford and Cambridge are not what MIT and Harvard is to Americans to the rest of the world. I think I come from "the rest of the world" and I can honestly say that unless you are doing one of their degrees that they are renowned for, don't bother going. The first thing I might ask a fresh grad (if I happen to be hiring) is: Which University did you graduate from? and most importantly what degree course did you read? I don't give much respect to Cambridge engineers, oxford hasn't even got a proper engineering school. So much for world class. I don't think a Yale/Harvard engineer would get much repect from any of the major engineering companies that are hiring too.
Both universities (Oxbridge) tend to use their "brand name" to promote their obviously lesser courses. An example is the Judge Institute of Management at Cambridge (their B school). They've even hired an advertising firm (Saatchi and Saatchi) to manage their brand name!! I mean if a university had to go to those means....
I think the best all round university in the world is Stanford actually. And I say this not because I've been accepted there but because it is known to be good in almost everything. I think the worse department at Stanford is definitely much much better than the worse at Oxbridge. Oxbridge right now are just riding on their brand name, sooner or later, people will come to realise that history counts for squat. Then they'll be in trouble. The brits are fools with money, most of the major engineering projects here in the UK are run by Americans (a joke IMO).... With the lack of funds coming into English Universities, they can only be going one direction....
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Edited 4/3/2003 10:32:32 PM ET by S2000GT
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From: S2000GT 4/3/2003 10:30 pm
To: GMan7777 (41 of 47)
15949.41 in reply to 15949.38
<<I am also under the impression that upon completing my MsC at Oxford, I will be flooded with interviews from top companies and will likely get into a top PhD program in the United States. What do you think?>>
That is not true, everybody "in the know" realises this decline. But given your choices, I would choose Oxford too. Mathematics is a pretty good course to do there. The Ancient British Univerities believe in giving their students a broad based education that would prepare them for learning.
I think also depends on which industry you plan on entering. Some clearly give applicants from "brand name" schools a very distinct advantage. But some don't. Would you want to be hired by a company that hires people based on their College degree? I don't. It mean that I have to pick up the slack when my colleagues can't deliver. I rather join a company that has "proven" employees, and where you go to college is hardly proof of that.
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From: shockawe1 4/4/2003 2:10 am
To: S2000GT (42 of 47)
15949.42 in reply to 15949.41
Stanford is no doubt Americas no.1 ...its ranked in the top 10 in nearly every graduate field imaginable, which is quite incredible. OxBridge cant compare to Harvard/YAle/berkeley, let alone Stanford.
Your comments on the funding scene and the liberal arts concentration at OxBridge are spot on...engineering studies overall are weak in UK. Its actually the german and french schools that are the leaders in engineering studies in Europe.
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From: GMan7777 4/4/2003 1:45 pm
To: S2000GT (43 of 47)
15949.43 in reply to 15949.41
<<Would you want to be hired by a company that hires people based on their College degree? I don't. It mean that I have to pick up the slack when my colleagues can't deliver.>>
Well, if I am hired by such a company I assume that my colleagues would also be hired with the same standard so there would likely be no picking up of the slack.
The decline you speak of is only recent. Over 1000 years, Oxford was the college of the elite and any intelligent person would concur that it is not going to be thrown down in a matter of even decades.
The fact is that Oxford remains a college of the elite and has always been considered comparable to top US universities like Harvard and Princeton. You yourself stated that were you in my position you would choose Oxford over New York University and UCLA. The latter two universities are rated #10 overall in mathematics in the united states (NYU is actually rated #1, above MIT and Stanford, in applied maths). Clearly, Oxford is considered as reputable as at least the top 10 universities in the US (as you yourself have expressed in your advice to me).
You know as well as I do that people who are searching for jobs need that foot in the door. Oxford, I imagine, will get my foot in the door on many occasions (which is all I really hope for anyways). Clearly, once you get an interview, actually getting the job is up to you.
Here is a quote from an Oxford alumni who teaches at a very prominent college in canada:
"In Canada and many parts of the world I think Oxbridge are regarded as comparable to Harvard and Princeton etc. There are in fact new strategic alliances
between Oxford and Princeton, and MIT and Cambridge:
http://www.cambridge-mit.org/cgi-bin/default.pl
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/1294857.stm
I've heard scathing reviews of
many top US universities. Grade inflation at Harvard e.g.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2 ... al/main318831.shtml
Bad stories about Yale, and more. Many reasons people take pleasure in
putting down these sorts of institutions, not to say that there aren't legitimate
criticisms as well.
...my feeling is to go to Oxford before going for a number 10 to number 20 ranked US
university...
...Another great thing about the Oxbridge experience is that very high-calibre
cosmopolitan group of people you will meet. The guest lecturers at Oxford were amazing. e.g. Boutros-Ghali, Dan Quayle, and other major figures. If you were born
and raised in North America, then living abroad for a substantial amount of time is a
very valuable experience in itself...."
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From: shockawe1 4/4/2003 6:15 pm
To: GMan7777 (44 of 47)
15949.44 in reply to 15949.43
Its true that for undergrad studies, a UK bachelors degree is more intensive, extensive, but not that much well rounded. However, this is graduate studies we are talking about... top american universities offer the best Phd programs on the planet, thanks to their extensive resources, world class professors, and free flowing mega research budgets. No other country even comes close. In an ideal world, if I were to have an opportunity to, lets say, do full studies in the area of EE or CS, I would get a bachelors from Imperial College, and then head to MIT or Stanford for a Phd. For graduate studies, USA is far ahead of UK. A 1 year masters at Oxford can be good for overseas exposure....and getting to know some different people and teaching styles.
I am sure you have experience with some top US schools like NYU, Columbia, MIT, etc. Go to Oxford and seek out the experience. Then only you will realise the difference.
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From: GMan7777 4/5/2003 2:17 am
To: shockawe1 unread (45 of 47)
15949.45 in reply to 15949.44
I will likely do that. In fact, I hope to earn my MsC in mathematics and the foundations of computer science and then, perhaps, pursue the PhD at a US institution. There are so many famous and highly successful public figures who did their graduate studies at Oxford so how bad can the Oxford graduate program be (in fact, I would assume that it must be quite good)? I am also a big fan of the tutorial system at Oxford which I have heard so much about which emphasizes comprehension and research over memorization and timed examinations. Many Alumnae of Oxford's graduate school have gone on to be very successful in life; I feel confident that upon graduation from Oxford the doors of opportunity will be wide open to the same extent that such doors would be opened if I were to attend Harvard or Princeton for a year (if they had 1 year programs, that is). I really do not see any minuses in attending Oxford over NYU, Columbia, Cornell, UCLA, or CUNY Graduate Center since I can probably apply to these schools after I graduate from Oxford and, assuming that I do well at Oxford, very likely get in with funding. Thanks for the info guys. Sorry if I have been defensive but it seemed as if everyone was attacking Oxford as if it provided a poor education to its graduate students, a contention I strongly disagree with in light of the evidence to the contrary (as I have stated, many famous and highly successful people attended Oxford graduate school including many Harvard, Princeton, MIT, and Yale graduates). All in all, I believe that there is no question that Oxford provides its graduate students with a top tier education....the question appears to be, rather, whether such education is comparable to the top 5 institutions (I believe it is while many of you guys beg to differ). If rated along with US institutions, I believe Oxford would at least be in the top 10 overall. That is my own opinion, of course.
Thanks for all your responses.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 4/5/2003 2:19:31 AM ET by GMAN7777
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From: dreambigman 4/8/2003 5:00 pm
To: GMan7777 (46 of 47)
15949.46 in reply to 15949.45
Dont worry oxford is great. Most people talk like this because they havent been there. my brother was rejected at Oxford and accepted at Harvard(currently into his PhD). He still calls oxford the best.
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From: GMan7777 4/8/2003 6:26 pm
To: dreambigman (47 of 47)
15949.47 in reply to 15949.46
Thanks for the reassurance but I don't think I really need any. I am confident that Oxford is the right choice. Hopefully I will be able to find a place in one of Oxford's Colleges (this waiting is really killing me even though I have been told by the admissions office that no one who has ever applied for my particular MsC program has ever been accepted by the faculty and then denied admission to one of Oxford's colleges). I applied to the MsC program in mathematics and the foundations of computer science. Thanks |
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发表于 2005-5-8 05:25:08
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