argument142 同主题，交晚了点

wwltlUID: 2156586

Argument142
The article entitled 'Eating Iron' in last month's issue of Eating for Health reported that a recent study found a correlation between high levels of iron in the diet and an increased risk of heart disease. Further, it is well established that there is a link between large amounts of red meat in the diet and heart disease, and red meat is high in iron. On the basis of the study and the well-established link between red meat and heart disease, we can conclude that the correlation between high iron levels and heart disease, then, is most probably a function of the correlation between red meat and heart disease

1，作者首先没有指明研究中的铁是否和红肉中的铁性状一致。红肉中说含的大量的铁，通常是作为肌红蛋白的组成部分与期集合在一起的。而研究中的diet中铁的状态很可能和red meat不同，例，以游离的离子状态存在。机体对于他们的反映可能会不一样。研究中的食物很可能是由于水质，或蛋类，肝脏等比重大，游离态铁增加心脏病的风险。而不是红肉。

2，即便各种食物间铁的状态是完全相同没有差异的，作者没有指明实验中铁的量与红肉中铁的量之间的关系。可能因为其他食物或水质原因，铁的含量非常高。而红肉中量虽然较高，但不能达到实验中的水平。因此。。。

3，虽然红肉和心脏病之间有联系，但是是否是铁引起的？例，胆固醇。或cooking方法导致。

At the first glance, the author seems to present a reasoned argument to convince us that it is red meat that is responsible for the correlation between high iron levels and heart disease. However, reconsideration can offer us a chance to find sufficient reasons to question the reliability of his conclusion, because the author fails to rule out the possibility that the high level iron in the study come from other food, instead of red meat. As to the correlation between red meat and heart disease, it might not be due to the high amount of iron in red meat, but other factors.

First of all, we do not know if the iron in the diet of the study, which has correlation with heart disease, shares the same nature with iron in red meat. According to biochemistry research, most iron in red meat is bound in heme, which combines with a kind of protein named myoglobin. Since muscle, as one major ingredient in red meat, contains the highest myoglobin, no wonder red meat is high in iron. However iron in water and some other kind of food may not necessarily bind to this protein, but be free or bind to other subjects. Since the argument does not inform us whether the high level of iron mainly comes from red meat or other kind of food which has rich iron as well but in different condition, we have enough reason to doubt his conclusion. In that, the correlation between high levels of iron in the diet and an increased risk of heart disease proved in the study, may not caused by red meat.

Secondly, even if there is no difference in the form of iron between red meat and other food, the author still should point out the specific data in the study concerning the minimal amount of iron that is sufficient to increase the risk of heart disease. For example, if the dangerous amount of iron in diet is 80mg per day, while red meat has 10mg of iron every one kilogram, then it can not be red meat that is responsible for the increased risk of heart disease. Because common sense tells us that most people, even though they love red meat very much, will not eat red meat over 2 kilogram every day. Therefore, the arguer should not conclude the red meat is the real cause of the increased risk of heart disease in the study before he can confirm the amount of iron in red meat is enough to reach the high level demanded by the study.

In addition, it might be other ingredient in red meat and other factors instead of iron that cause the correlation between red meat and heart disease. As we all know, red meat also has high level of cholesterol which has been proved to increase the possibility of having heart disease. And the methods that people cook red meat usually involve oil, which could harm our heart as well if we take too much. Since they might be responsible for the increased risk of heart disease when people eat red meat, meanwhile the author fails to prove iron in red meat is the actual cause, there is no ground for him to claim red meat can be used to explain to the study result.

To sum up, the author should investigate the real cause of red meat to induce heart disease, comparing to the mechanism of high level iron in increasing heart disease, instead of imposing a causal relationship between the two phenomena without logical deduction.

AuscoolUID: 2304104

先占座，一会儿改了贴上来

AuscoolUID: 2304104

1，作者首先没有指明研究中的铁是否和红肉中的铁性状一致。红肉中说含的大量的铁，通常是作为肌红蛋白的组成部分与期集合在一起的。而研究中的diet中铁的状态很可能和red meat不同，例，以游离的离子状态存在。机体对于他们的反映可能会不一样。研究中的食物很可能是由于水质，或蛋类，肝脏等比重大，游离态铁增加心脏病的风险。而不是红肉。

2，即便各种食物间铁的状态是完全相同没有差异的，作者没有指明实验中铁的量与红肉中铁的量之间的关系。可能因为其他食物或水质原因，铁的含量非常高。而红肉中量虽然较高，但不能达到实验中的水平。因此。。。

3，虽然红肉和心脏病之间有联系，但是是否是铁引起的？例，胆固醇。或cooking方法导致。

At the first glance, the author seems to present a reasoned argument to convince us that it is red meat that is responsible for the correlation between high iron levels and heart disease. However, reconsideration can offer us a chance to find sufficient reasons to question the reliability of his conclusion, because the author fails to rule out the possibility that the high level iron in the study come from other food, instead of red meat. As to the correlation between red meat and heart disease, it might not be due to the high amount of iron in red meat, but other factors.

First of all, we do not know if the iron in the diet of the study, which has correlation with heart disease, shares the same nature with iron in red meat. According to biochemistry research, most iron in red meat is bound in heme, which combines with a kind of protein named myoglobin. Since muscle, as one major ingredient in red meat, contains the highest myoglobin, no wonder red meat is high in iron. However iron in water and some other kind of food may not necessarily bind to this protein, but be free or bind to other subjects. Since the argument does not inform us whether the high level of iron mainly comes from red meat or other kind of food which has rich iron as well but in different condition（应该是in the same condition 吧）, we have enough reason to doubt his conclusion. In that, the correlation between high levels of iron in the diet and an increased risk of heart disease proved in the study, may not caused by red meat.

Secondly, even if there is no difference in the form of iron between red meat and other food, the author still should point out the specific data in the study concerning the minimal amount of iron that is sufficient to increase the risk of heart disease. For example, if the dangerous amount of iron in diet is 80mg per day, while red meat has 10mg of iron every one kilogram, then it can not be red meat that is responsible for the increased risk of heart disease. Because common sense tells us that most people, even though they love red meat very much, will not eat red meat over 2 kilogram every day. Therefore, the arguer should not conclude the red meat is the real cause of the increased risk of heart disease in the study before he can confirm the amount of iron in red meat is enough to reach the high level demanded by the study.

In addition, it might be other ingredient in red meat and other factors instead of iron that cause the correlation between red meat and heart disease. As we all know, red meat also has high level of cholesterol which has been proved to increase the possibility of having heart disease. And the methods that people cook red meat usually involve oil, which could harm our heart as well if we take too much. Since they might be responsible for the increased risk of heart disease when people eat red meat, meanwhile the author fails to prove iron in red meat is the actual cause, there is no ground for him to claim red meat can be used to explain to the study result.

To sum up, the author should investigate the real cause of red meat to induce heart disease, comparing to the mechanism of high level iron in increasing heart disease, instead of imposing a causal relationship between the two phenomena without logical deduction.



首先，很佩服lz渊博的知识。行文也很流畅，语言很好。
一开始看得有点蒙，如果我没理解错的话，lz是想说实验中铁与心脏病有关不能证明红肉中铁与心脏病有关，因此红肉与心脏病有关可能其他原因引起的。但这么一来你就是说the arguer 的 function的用反了，可你没指出，那么你所证明的是什么呢？所以我觉得除非你在最后补上这个错误，否则你前面攻击的有什么用呢？

wwltlUID: 2156586

我觉得对这个argument大家不一样的观点比较多。我觉得问题集中在对于最后一句话的理解上。
we can conclude that the correlation between high iron levels and heart disease, then, is most probably a function of the correlation between red meat and heart disease
在我理解看来，作者的意思是说之所以这个研究的结果是这样的－即，铁含量高和心脏病有关联－可以被解释为是由于红肉和心脏病有关联。他其实只是想把第一个correlation的原因归结到第二个correlation上面，并没有说一定是因为红肉中的铁起了作用。所以我驳斥的就是，这第一个correlation很可能和第二个correlation完全无关。

怎么样无关呢？两点：1，实验中的铁和红肉中的铁形式不一样；2，实验中的铁含量很高，红肉中的铁含量不足以达到这样的水平。这两个可能性存在的时候，也就证明了实验中的心脏病的铁根本不是从红肉来的，于是也就驳斥了作者想把两个correlation归结到一起的论点。

至于第三部分，我是觉得他提出的红肉和心脏病的关系是想要误导大家把红肉、铁、心脏病三个串成一条线。如果这个串成了一条线，也可以在一定程度上支持他的结论。所以我就提出这三个因素之间未必是一条线的关系。

[ 本帖最后由 wwltl 于 2007-3-2 20:28 编辑 ]