No 5-3一道短阅读

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The belief that art originates in intuitive rather than rational faculties was worked out historically and phi- losophically in the somewhat wearisome volumes of Benedetto Croce, who is usually considered the orig- inator of a new aesthetic. Croce was, in fact, express- ing a very old idea. Long before the Romantics stressed intuition and self-expression, the frenzy of inspiration was regarded as fundamental to art, but philosophers had always assumed it must be controlled by law and by the intellectual power of putting things into harmonious order. This general philosophic con- cept of art was supported by technical necessities. It was necessary to master certain laws and to use intel- lect in order to build Gothic cathedrals, or set up the stained glass windows of Chartres. When this bracing element of craftsmanship ceased to dominate artists' outlook, new technical elements had to be adopted to maintain the intellectual element in art. Such were linear perspective and anatomy.


18. The passage supplies information for answering which of the following questions?
　　(A) Does Romantic art exhibit the triumph of intuition over intellect?
　　(B) Did an emphasis on linear perspective and anatomy dominate Romantic art?
　　(C) Are the intellectual and intuitive faculties harmoniously balanced in post-Romantic art?
　　(D) Are the effects of the rational control of artistic inspiration evident in the great works of pre-Romantic eras?
　　(E) Was the artistic craftsmanship displayed in Gothic cathedrals also an element in paintings of this period?


























SPOILER:我选A.官方答案是D！！

在寄托找到的解释是：
18. The passage supplies information for answering which of the following questions?（细节题）
(A) Does Romantic art exhibit the triumph of intuition over intellect?（未提，L9——10 Long before the Romantics stressed intuition and self-expression）
(B) Did an emphasis on linear perspective and anatomy dominate Romantic art?(文章末句，new
　　technical elements had to be adopted to maintain the intellectual element in art. Such were linear perspective and anatomy. 错选了B 只有末句提到小点强调 不能算)
(C)Are the intellectual and intuitive faculties harmoniously balanced in post-Romantic art?（无中生有）
(D)Are the effects of the rational control of artistic inspiration evident in the great works of pre-Romantic eras?（L8——10
expressing a very old idea. Long before the Romantics stressed intuition and self-expression,）
(E) Was the artistic craftsmanship displayed in Gothic cathedrals also an element in paintings of this period?（无中生有）

https://bbs.gter.net/thread-922782-1-2.html         见八楼有原文及题目（题18）


对该解释持有异议。分析如下：
1）The belief that art originates in intuitive rather than rational faculties……Croce was, in fact, express- ing a very old idea. Long before the Romantics stressed intuition and self-expression, the frenzy of inspiration was regarded as fundamental to art……

显然a very old idea指的是‘art originates in intuitive rather than rational faculties’。
那么紧接着当然是给出这个idea的历史渊源，而关于Romantics的内容显然是给出的'intuition rather than rational faculties'的一个例子。
即使不作任何分析，文章已经有原句：'Romantics stressed intuition'，因此'A未提及'这个解释在我看来是非常不令人信服的。

2）关于选项D。该贴给出的解释是L8-L10：‘expressing a very old idea. Long before the Romantics stressed intuition and self-expression’，但是从该句能看出任何与rational control有关的内容吗?

新来乍到，谢谢读贴，请不要给出与原帖重复且我已经理解的解释。

萝卜须根多UID: 3008387

D选项的the effects rational control of artistic inspiration是对原文the frenzy of inspiration ...... assumed it must be controlled by law and by the intellectual power of putting things into harmonious order的改写，而evident in the great works of pre-Romantic eras也是对Long before the Romantics的改写。也就是说D选项对应的是整个第3句
A选项triumph of intuition over intellect中，那个triumph从何而来，romantic art是stress intuition，但是并没有任何关于triumph of intuition的迹象出现啊

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2# 萝卜须根多

1)假设A说我发现了一个新物质X，B说这个物质X早就被发现了，在C发现X之前，就有人预言了X的存在，而哲学家则认为X不存在，那么这四个X应该是同一件事物吧？

在我看来，原文大概就是这样一个结构。
第一个X是the belief that art originates in intuitive rather than rational faculties
第二个X是expressing a very old idea
第三个X是stress intuition
如果你说stress intuition并没有隐含triumph intellect的意思，old idea的说法何来？


2)至于同义反复，容我到原句分析一次。
Long before the Romantics stressed intuition and self-expression, the frenzy of inspiration was regarded as fundamental to art, but philosophers had always assumed it must be controlled by law and by the intellectual power of putting things into harmonious order.

如果说是同义反复，并得出原文提供了对问题D)肯定的答案，也就是effects of the rational control of artistic inspiration is evident in the great works of pre-Romantic eras的话，怎么解释原文除了提到philosopher's opinion,还提到in pre-romantic times,frenzy of inspiration was regarded fundamental to art.
你的意思是哲学家的想法更重要？

更抠细节一点，原文难道有提到pre-Romantic works?我不懂艺术，但是从原文我是没看出有任何建立在pre-Romantic和art works之间的联系的。

萝卜须根多UID: 3008387

(A) Does Romantic art exhibit the triumph of intuition over intellect?是这个黑体字部分太过了，过分推断
(D) 中你的疑问其实是你过度推断了，而且本来全文就是有history和philosophy的讨论的
另外，不觉得你要懂艺术才能做阅读

imajerkUID: 3134977

4# 萝卜须根多

1)你说我过度推断却不反驳我的推断过程？
我的推断过程很明晰，也不知道何有过度之嫌。

2）再次过度推断。“术语”中毒了吧，如此模糊的解释是没有信服力的。
明明原文说：早在浪漫主义之前，认为灵感对艺术是根本。如果像你那样断章取义，我完全可以得出浪漫主义之前完全没有rational control。

'before Romantics……the frenzy of inspiration was regarded as fundamental to art'
'effects of the rational control of artistic inspiration is evident in the great works of pre-Romantic eras'
难道这两个观点在你看来没有冲突？


3)我不懂艺术只是一个信息，后面的论点才是我想说的重点:There is no link established between pre-Romantic eras and art works.请反驳论点，不要反驳信息。

萝卜须根多UID: 3008387

1）过度推断的问题，triumph的解释来自MW

1 : a ceremony attending the entering of Rome by a general who had won a decisive victory over a foreign enemy ? compare OVATION 1
2 : the joy or exultation of victory or success
3 a : a victory or conquest by or as if by military force  b : a notable success  *the party was a triumph*

这是怎样一个大词啊，这里太过了吧
2）pre-Romantic works--->pre-Romantic---->Long before the Romantics 整篇都在谈art，这个句子也没谈别的啥啊，就是philosophy的什么也是在说art上面的
还有什么问题？

imajerkUID: 3134977

6# 萝卜须根多


1)如果你要扣字典的话无话可说，但是我可以举出一堆在阅读中作者使用了和韦氏字典词义有很大偏差的例子。
在我看来intuition triumph over intellect无非表达了强调前者而非后者的意思。

但是值得注意的是，前面你的论点是：文中只提到stress intuition而没有提到over intellect；而现在你的论点转移到triumph的意义上。
不知道对你论点重心转移的理解是否正确？

2）看来你是把art等同于art works，那在你这前提下，我说我抠细节也就没有意义了。对art与art works的区别，我持保留意见

3）Again,it still puzzles me how do you resolve the contradiction between the opinion that frenzy inspiration was regarded fundamental to art before Romanticism and the conclusion that rational control was evident in pre-Romantic art works?
And it seems to me the point ,that frenzy inspiration was fundamental, is more tightly associated with the term 'pre-Romantic eras',which leads me to believe: any answer for question 'D',if provided by the passage,should be the intuition was evident in pre-Romantic works,not rational control.

FYI,we may as well look up the M-Webster dictionary for the word 'frenzy':
1.a : a temporary madness b : a violent mental or emotional agitation
2.intense usually wild and often disorderly compulsive or agitated activity <a shopping frenzy>
Isn't frenzy 'too big' and hence not apt to be the adjective of inspiration????

萝卜须根多UID: 3008387

我的论点一直是那个。。。。。。
art和art works有什么本质的区别吗？如果你要这样扣字眼，那么很多题你都做不了。本来阅读的题很多这样类似的改写的
我没看出有啥contradiction的，本来就evident了的啊
题中要敏感这些大词，因为是出题点啦，一般文章来自论文，理科的不太会用这样的词，但文科的偶尔会有些情感类的出现~

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8# 萝卜须根多


Are we reading the same passage at all??
Frenzy inspiration is fundamental to art means intuition is fundamental.
But you concluded that rational control is evident.


So there is no contradiction between the two?
Then tell me why there is a 'but' before saying that philosophers had always assumed rational control over inspiration is necessary?

萝卜须根多UID: 3008387

fundamental是基本的意思，evident是明显的意思，请问这个连个有啥冲突的啊，哥哥

imajerkUID: 3134977

In my defense:
Factor A can lead to case X.
But A is controlled by factor B.
Can we assume A is fundamental to X??
No!Because obviously A is not at the root of the causal link!

The contradiction stem from 'fundamental' and 'control'.
If intuition is fundamental,then rational capacity can't be in control.



=====================================================
许多中文解释都非常模糊，尤其经过**高考的污染，用“基本”来解释fundamental太粗糙了。
我想如果非要用中文，在严谨用词规范的情况下，fundamental第一选择应该译作“根本，最底层的因素”。
而这样翻译原文中fundamental我们就可以清楚的认识到，为什么哲学家认为it must be controlled by intellect power前面有个but.

萝卜须根多UID: 3008387

你对fundamental的理解确实非常精准，其英文释义确实是有essential和very original的含义在里面
你认为fundamental的不能被control？
但是control是来自原文那

Long before the Romantics stressed intuition and self-expression, the frenzy of inspiration was regarded as fundamental to art, but philosophers had always assumed it must be controlled by law and by the intellectual power of putting things into harmonious order.

这不是正好回答了D的问题么？

imajerkUID: 3134977

我怎么感觉你老是没看完我的分析。
我的意思是凭什么文章提供了两个信息：
1.“早在浪漫主义……之前，灵感被认为是艺术的根本”
2.“哲学家一直认为艺术必须被理性所控制”i.e.“哲学家理性是艺术的根本”

从这两个矛盾的信息中，您是怎么得出“理性控制的显著的”？
得出这个结论，首先要否定第一条信息。
而在我看来，第一条信息才是有效的。
首先无论从距离上还是意思上“灵感是艺术的根本”都比“理性是艺术的根本”与“long before the Romantics”联系地更紧密。
第二，哲学家的想法和艺术作品有关系么？我的理解下，but这个转折后面只是发表哲学家的意见，并不表明艺术真正的发展历史。
文中恰好就印证了这一点，哲学家一直认为理性控制是根本，然而浪漫主义艺术家强调的是直觉和自我表达。
也就是说甭管哲学家想啥，浪漫主义艺术不会理会哲学家怎么想。

当然你可以说“浪漫主义艺术强调的是直觉和自我表达”和“哲学家认为理性控制是根本”没有矛盾。
但是在我的理解下，long before A do X,B have done Y，这个句式表明A、B两者意见是一致的，i.e.浪漫主义也认为灵感是艺术的根本。

没想到我费了那么多时间你都没明白我的困惑在哪。

====================================================
新发现是，即使我抛弃A选项
只从“早在浪漫主义强调直觉和自我表达之前，灵感被认为是艺术的根本”，是不是可以得出对B的否定答案？
(B) Did an emphasis on linear perspective and anatomy dominate Romantic art?
perspective and anatomy显然是属于rationale而非intuition部分。

萝卜须根多UID: 3008387

原文是：早在浪漫主义。。。。intuition就被认为是fundamental，但是哲学家 had always认为是。。。而这个哲学的概念是被technical necessities支持的（这个technical necessities是很现实的东西，难道不会影响历史么）
就没人说理性是艺术的根本，只是control，而且这种概念是被支持的，是evident（clear to vision or understanding）所以我认为选D

你认为fundamental的一个东西是不能被别的东西control的（这我不是很能理解啊）
你还认为艺术家认为的东西和哲学家的观点是不能放在一起看待的（这个我保留吧）
你等等看有么有高手来回答吧，真心佩服你的毅力，我力竭了
新G加油

imajerkUID: 3134977

14# 萝卜须根多

好吧。虽然你没有完全说服我。不过我明白你的想法了。
It's good to have your perspective.
Really appreciate your time&effort!!