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Utopia?
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I want to think on this before giving my reasoning(s)
It is not possible. There are always people who think it is fun to do so called evil things. Communisim is supposed to solve all problems and create a utopia. It flat out failed. It can work if you were in a say... one person community. But otherwise, it is unatainable. If you look at the Shakers or whatever, they thought all evil came from man. Well, to create the "Utopia they were looking for, they cut off the genitalia off the man.
Looks like they didn't shake it anymore
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rapture
I want to think on this before giving my reasoning(s)
Utopia? Only one way to garentee it and that is to create a Matrix of sorts. Make the best possible world on a computer and let human minds interact with it. That is the only way to ensure a utopia as each person can experience everything they want to and have no negative impact on others.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMD4EVER
Utopia? Only one way to garentee it and that is to create a Matrix of sorts. Make the best possible world on a computer and let human minds interact with it. That is the only way to ensure a utopia as each person can experience everything they want to and have no negative impact on others.
How exactly would this "matrix" work?
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Here is another thought to ponder.... How can you truly know heaven if you have never experienced hell..
The price of liberty is eternal vigilance.... Not exactly a utopia but as close as anyone can get...
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Originally Posted by Valthonis
How exactly would this "matrix" work?
Basically you would make a digital copy of your brain and put it into a computer running a Utopia like world. From there you could give yourself an identity/body and interact with the Utopia world as long as the computer continued to function. That is essentially how it would work.
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So would you interact with the others in this utopia, or would it be a different world for each individual?
If you can interract with others, that would just eliminate natural disasters. How do you stop humans?
If each one is individual, that would mean you never would meet another human being in your life, they would all be computer programs. That isn't Utopia really.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phunting
So would you interact with the others in this utopia, or would it be a different world for each individual?
Probably a mix of both. Each person would have their own world where they can do anything they want as all as create AI humans in any way they wish to. There would also be a massive world where all people in the system could meet and no AI humans would exist. There people could talk with others while in their own worlds they could do whatever they wanted.
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If you can interract with others, that would just eliminate natural disasters. How do you stop humans?
Well it is not like you could get hurt or anything. In the interactive world you couldn't get into a fight if you didn't want to as you would have complete control over yourself if you wished to. It would make you a ghost of sorts. Seen, heard, but not affected by outside forces.
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If each one is individual, that would mean you never would meet another human being in your life, they would all be computer programs. That isn't Utopia really.
That is why I would suggest a mix of both an individual world and an interactive one.
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OK, so physical harm can be avoided, how about emotional harm? How would we stop people inflicting severe emotional harm on the 'real' people they interract with?
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And after it's all over you say 'Ooh what a lovely tea party'
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Originally Posted by Phunting
OK, so physical harm can be avoided, how about emotional harm? How would we stop people inflicting severe emotional harm on the 'real' people they interract with?
That would only occur if they wished to deal with real people who inflict severe emotional harm. Considering they are inside a computer and can be in complete control of themselves they can also shut off their own hearing towards an individual or even sight of them.
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That assumes the victim is able to recognize the need to shut it off, and want to. Let me be more specific, what about a couple who are in a relationship. They both love each other but one can be abusive. Now the victim here would likley not 'shut off' the abuser as they still love them and want it to work.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMD4EVER
That would only occur if they wished to deal with real people who inflict severe emotional harm. Considering they are inside a computer and can be in complete control of themselves they can also shut off their own hearing towards an individual or even sight of them.
So your saying you would feel no emotions? Than if that is so, you are not in control of your mind and this little "matrix" would be pointless. Then about not feeling anything, so you aren't going to feel adreniline rushes? Lots of people like them. Then about the hearing stuff and shutting it off, then that would not be a true utopia, everyone is equal meaning they get their own say. Plus, you can not feel pleasure without pain. Darkness does not exist without light. Evil must balance good. Going back to your comment hellhound.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phunting
That assumes the victim is able to recognize the need to shut it off, and want to. Let me be more specific, what about a couple who are in a relationship. They both love each other but one can be abusive. Now the victim here would likley not 'shut off' the abuser as they still love them and want it to work.
Simple. Recreate them as an AI and make it work.
Yes you would have to be responsible for your own decisions even in a Utopia. I'm sure this is even the case in Heaven as seen with Satan being cast out. If you are bound and determined to make Utopia a living hell then you will be able to do it. However Utopia would give you the ability to do whatever you wanted to if you wish to take advantage of it. It wouldn't be Utopia if you couldn't make this decision for yourself.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valthonis
So your saying you would feel no emotions?
Where did I say that? I didn't even mean to imply that in case I did. The point I was trying to make is that it would be easier to ignore negative interactions by actually blocking them out.
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Than if that is so, you are not in control of your mind and this little "matrix" would be pointless. Then about not feeling anything, so you aren't going to feel adreniline rushes?
When did I say this??? I'm not sure how you are getting this from my posts but I never meant to say that you would feel nothing. Sure you would have the ability to ignore physical feelings if you wish as you would be in complete control of yourself. Being in complete control also means you can feel a constant adreniline rush if you wish. You can always feel happy or you can always feel sad. It is your choice what you feel and you can overcome anyone of those feelings if you wish to.
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Lots of people like them. Then about the hearing stuff and shutting it off, then that would not be a true utopia, everyone is equal meaning they get their own say.
That is like saying I shouldn't block spam mailers from my e-mail. In a perfect e-mail world those spammers would get blocked no matter what because they are nusence. This same theory has to apply in Utopia otherwise people can harass others without them being able to prevent it. You have to be able to select what you hear, see, and remember for it to be Utopia.
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Plus, you can not feel pleasure without pain. Darkness does not exist without light. Evil must balance good.
That is why I made sure to state that you are the one who chooses whether you want to listen to or feel something negative. You will not be restricted from anything. If you want to physically fight people all day long and feel the full level of pain inflicted on you then so be it. The point is that you have chosen to do this meaning it is what you want to do. It wouldn't be Utopia if you were prevented from doing what you wanted to do no matter how stupid it may seem to others.
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The trouble with your matrix idea is that you must know what constitutes a utopia -- otherwise you won't be able to 'create' it on a computer. And the only way you could do this is if you had experienced everything at least once.
Otherwise, all your going to end up with is some pseudo world where all the bad things have been eliminated, but not all the good things have been added.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldskool79
The trouble with your matrix idea is that you must know what constitutes a utopia -- otherwise you won't be able to 'create' it on a computer. And the only way you could do this is if you had experienced everything at least once.
Otherwise, all your going to end up with is some pseudo world where all the bad things have been eliminated, but not all the good things have been added.
What constitutes a Utopia is the belief that you are living in Utopia. Nothing will change that.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMD4EVER
What constitutes a Utopia is the belief that you are living in Utopia. Nothing will change that.
So then all we need in order to live in a utopia is some hypnosis or brainwashing?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMD4EVER
Simple. Recreate them as an AI and make it work.
Firstly I doubt this would happen, and secondly we agreed that it wouldn't be utopia if it relied on AIs.
In the end the point is that humans naturally conflict with each other, what is one mans Utopia isn't another. The only way to satisfy everyone would be that each had their own individual reality with AIs and no interraction with any other real people. And I doubt that would satisfy the exact definition of utopia.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldskool79
So then all we need in order to live in a utopia is some hypnosis or brainwashing?
Technically that is what the Matrix would be anyways. Your mind getting fed false information in the form of real world things. Certainly this isn't natural.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phunting
Firstly I doubt this would happen, and secondly we agreed that it wouldn't be utopia if it relied on AIs.
It doesn't rely on AI's. The topic we just covered doesn't even rely on AI's. You have the choice of making it rely on AI's if you wish to do so but there are many other options out there as well.
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In the end the point is that humans naturally conflict with each other, what is one mans Utopia isn't another. The only way to satisfy everyone would be that each had their own individual reality with AIs and no interraction with any other real people. And I doubt that would satisfy the exact definition of utopia.
That is why you need the individual world and the interactive one. Personally I would probably be happy living in my individual world with my AI's. That would be my Utopia. However you may want to go into the interactive world where you don't have complete control over the entire environment. Perhaps you would enjoy living in a place similar to your previous lifestyle while still having more control over yourself than you did before. Don't you see that the interactive world is similar to the life that we are leaving behind? If you take that away then you take away a key part of what is necessary to create Utopia. Some people will want to be able to have real conversations, real debates, and real conflicts even if it doesn't always have a positive impact on them. The point is that this is what they want to do and are able to do it. Others can lock themselves away in the individual world if they don't want to deal with the interactive one. It is the best of both worlds.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMD4EVER
It doesn't rely on AI's. The topic we just covered doesn't even rely on AI's. You have the choice of making it rely on AI's if you wish to do so but there are many other options out there as well.
The only answer you gave to the abusive relationship problem was to use AIs, which made it appear that therefore it does rely on AIs. What other options are there?
I do see what you are saying, but my point is that it can never be perfect. There always can be a problem, no matter how slight. Utopia is like infinity, it is the technical end of the path, yet it can never in actuality be reached.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMD4EVER
Simple. Recreate them as an AI and make it work.
if we were talking about love here, something that is not alive can not feel an emotion. So, that would screw that person over. And why woul you recreate them, they are alive in the first place.
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AMD, could you answer this question... If you have never seen darkness, how can you be sure that you live in the light.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phunting
The only answer you gave to the abusive relationship problem was to use AIs, which made it appear that therefore it does rely on AIs. What other options are there?
Another simple option would be to forget or to change your memory. You will always have complete control over yourself so doing this would not be difficult. They could also try to do more human things in working it out or just moving on. No matter how they choose to go about it they will be the ones making the decision.
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I do see what you are saying, but my point is that it can never be perfect. There always can be a problem, no matter how slight. Utopia is like infinity, it is the technical end of the path, yet it can never in actuality be reached.
It depends on your definition of perfect. How would you define the perfect world? If you can define it then you can achieve it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valthonis
if we were talking about love here, something that is not alive can not feel an emotion. So, that would screw that person over.
Uhhhh, prove it. If you are in the Matrix technically you are dead but I don't see you jumping to point that out either. It would seem to me that you believe that the human mind is special. It can feel emotion. But if we try and recreate a human mind then it cannot feel emotion.
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And why woul you recreate them, they are alive in the first place.
They are only a human mind in an artificial world. They are not actually alive and neither would you be if you were in the Matrix.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valthonis
AMD, could you answer this question... If you have never seen darkness, how can you be sure that you live in the light.
I'm not sure what you are getting at here. If you are under the impression that Utopia would involve only light or good feelings then you are mistaken. You get to choose whether you are going to surround yourself in light always or step into the darkness. If I'm misunderstanding your question please clarify it for me.
Also I have a question for you. If we live in only darkness and light how can we be sure there isn't something else? If there is something else do we live a lesser life because we have not experienced it? Assuming there is something else, are you disappointed with your life since you can only live in darkness and light?
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The point I wa trying to get at is if you never feel pain, how do you know what pleasure is exactly?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valthonis
The point I wa trying to get at is if you never feel pain, how do you know what pleasure is exactly?
If you had read my debate you would know that this question is not an issue when it comes to what I proposed.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMD4EVER
Technically that is what the Matrix would be anyways. Your mind getting fed false information in the form of real world things. Certainly this isn't natural.
that would not be yourself thinking.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMD4EVER
If you had read my debate you would know that this question is not an issue when it comes to what I proposed.
Just answering your question |
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发表于 2004-6-22 18:36:19
发表于 2004-6-24 00:13:01
发表于 2004-6-29 18:55:11
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