[追星剑特训]Chapter1.2 More 比较级

飞越时空的猫UID: 159198

imoge同学，关于你的more这个问题。我刚写了issue1（"We can usually learn much more from people whose views we share than from people whose views contradict our own; disagreement can cause stress and inhibit learning."），发在坛子里了。写之前有学习过你这篇特训，所以比较小心的去注意“比较”，可是我发现还是不会做比较，一写就变成agreement有好的一面，但是disagreement更重要，它的好处有……一铺开去写，就都是单独的论证了。
或者是，我的论证层面还不够深刻？困惑中……

riverchengUID: 168817

分析虽然有理，但未必符合ETS的思维。没有对比，确实有离题之嫌，但ETS肯定不会判off-topic甚至不会扣分．大家可以看ETS提供的６分范文，关于通才与专才那篇．
基本就是先论证专才的重要性，再论证通才的重要性，总结两者都必不可少．还不是照样得了６分．

toplchUID: 138739

我对此持反对意见。
说A重要，没有A不行；说重B要，没有B不行。这实际上就证明了同样重要，缺一不可。
我的例证：ETS的Generalist VS Specialist的题目其实就是说Generalist要比Specialist更重要，但6分范文并没有比较他们谁更重要（而且也没法比，各行各业他们都是同等重要的，并不存在imong
所说的“要从各自方面对比：展示存在beneficial大于detrimental的方面，展示存在detrimental大于beneficial的方面”），而是证明两者同样重要，缺一不可。

toplchUID: 138739

不好意思，发完帖子之后，才发现和楼上的不仅观点相同，连例证都一样（有plagiarism的嫌疑）。我还是希望大家能好好讨论一下，免得错误的观点会误人子弟。
当然，我不是针对楼主imong的，毕竟谁都会犯错误。而且，我看过imong很多文章，总结的都很不错，受益也非浅。另外，我认为“追星剑特训”的想法很好，作的也很出色，希望继续坚持，大家都支持你！

lovebrianUID: 157127

最初由 toplch 发布
[B]说A重要，没有A不行；说重B要，没有B不行。这实际上就证明了同样重要，缺一不可。
[/B]

嗯？！这位同学犯了我们一直在强调切忌的错误！
两者都重要<>两者同等重要 明白！？
另外 没有X不行，这种必要性只能说在必要性这种层面上两者都为必要条件，那么，你却没有就必要条件之间孰重孰轻做出比较。也就是说，做了无用功。反问一下：所有的必要条件都同等重要吗？答案显而易见了吧。对理论提出质疑当然欢迎，但要做到有理有据，另外，不要乱用“误人子弟”这样的词汇哦。谢谢你。

imongUID: 140258

Okay! 收到

我下去看！^_^

去看specialist 去

两个版本的specialist点评：
https://bbs.gter.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=129074

https://bbs.gter.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=104688

imongUID: 140258

最初由 rivercheng 发布
[B]分析虽然有理，但未必符合ETS的思维。没有对比，确实有离题之嫌，但ETS肯定不会判off-topic甚至不会扣分．大家可以看ETS提供的６分范文，关于通才与专才那篇．
基本就是先..

以下省略...... [/B]

rivercheng提出“没有对比未必会损失什么”并以specialist作为例证。

回去复习了一下Specialist这篇范文。我想问一下：文章是不是就像“基本就是先论证专才的重要性，再论证通才的重要性，总结两者都必不可少．”这么简单？

从b1 b2 到 b 345，文章里面所作出的contrast似乎没有在上面那句总结里面体现出来吧？——而恐怕这个contrast才是拿到6分的关键的说。

我的反驳立足于——难道specialist里面没有contrast吗？

就怕出现这种情况——只看到形式的“大纲”，没把握文章实质。

toplchUID: 138739

首先，我重申，我用“误人子弟”并没有轻视任何人也更没有辱骂任何人的意思（而
且也没有动机让我这样做）。如果你因此受到伤害，那我向你道歉，并愿意把这个词
改为“误导”。
其次，我在此强调，我们的讨论应该只抱着学术交流，增进理解，攻克GRE作文的目
的，而不要有个人的感情加在其中。
然后：
首先，我承认两者都重要并不代表两者同等重要，如果两者的重要性能进行比较的话
，当然是要比较的了。这种情况下我同意imong的观点，不比较会off-topic的。
但，问题是有的情况是不能比较谁更重要，谁更次要的。比如，Generalist和
Specialist，他们同等重要，都是社会发展不可缺少力量。这时候，就没有必要再比
较他们的重要性了（也没有必要比在这种情况下A更重要，在另外情况下B更重要。实
际上在各种情况下他们都同等的重要，都不可少。），只要证明到他们都必不可少就
行了，这是因为必要的条件是不能相比的，他们是同等重要的。比如，水和空气对人
类都是必要的，你不能因为人没有水能活几天而没有空气就只能活几分钟，就说空气
比水更重要，实际上没有水人类也要灭亡。这也是英语中为什么只有more important
而没有more necessary的缘故。
其次，对于imong得反问“难道specialist里面没有contrast吗？”我认为，要回答
这个问题，首先必须看我们怎么定义“contrast”。如果把它定义为两个概念之间差
别的比较的话，这篇文章里确实有“contrast”，但在这种定义下，imong举的反例
issue1和issue73的文章里也有这种意义下的“contrast”。如果我们把它定义为两
个概念的重要程度的比较的话（我感觉imong理解的是这种含义），这篇范文确实没
有这种比较，至少我是看不出来。如果有人能找到，告诉我一下。再此先谢了！

imongUID: 140258

其次，对于imong得反问“难道specialist里面没有contrast吗？”我认为，要回答
这个问题，首先必须看我们怎么定义“contrast”。

这句话问得漂亮。我再去看。^_^
（要是能把那篇issue73给找出来就好了......不过恐怕困难重重 :( ）

imongUID: 140258

关于both are indispensa（a还是i）ble的问题写的时候的确想到过。

首先，我承认两者都重要并不代表两者同等重要，如果两者的重要性能进行比较的话
，当然是要比较的了。这种情况下我同意imong的观点，不比较会off-topic的。
但，问题是有的情况是不能比较谁更重要，谁更次要的。比如，Generalist和
Specialist，他们同等重要，都是社会发展不可缺少力量。这时候，就没有必要再比
较他们的重要性了（也没有必要比在这种情况下A更重要，在另外情况下B更重要。实
际上在各种情况下他们都同等的重要，都不可少。），只要证明到他们都必不可少就
行了，这是因为必要的条件是不能相比的，他们是同等重要的。比如，水和空气对人
类都是必要的，你不能因为人没有水能活几天而没有空气就只能活几分钟，就说空气
比水更重要，实际上没有水人类也要灭亡。这也是英语中为什么只有more important
而没有more necessary的缘故。

展示存在beneficial大于detrimental的方面，展示存在detrimental大于beneficial的方面，这些方面是society这个integrity的有机组成部分，不可少，不可互相替代，blabla…..

Specialist在这一层面上不可少，Generalist在另一层面上不可少。范文也就是这样的吧——而你的意思是：这一点不能够算作，or 归属为，contrast？而至于说水和空气，如果我去论证，是不是说离开了水我的代谢要挂，离开了空气我的氧化放能直接没戏。——不可能是呼吸水，不可能是通过空气来溶解吧？

说到这里，我觉得也就到了问题关键了：

其次，对于imong得反问“难道specialist里面没有contrast吗？”我认为，要回答
这个问题，首先必须看我们怎么定义“contrast”。如果把它定义为两个概念之间差
别的比较的话，这篇文章里确实有“contrast”，但在这种定义下，imong举的反例
issue1和issue73的文章里也有这种意义下的“contrast”。如果我们把它定义为两
个概念的重要程度的比较的话（我感觉imong理解的是这种含义），这篇范文确实没
有这种比较，至少我是看不出来。如果有人能找到，告诉我一下。再此先谢了！

我想除了重要“程度”，我在一楼应该还提到过“不可少，不可互相替代”吧？包括在里面的呢.....而specialist这篇范文，再看从b1 b2的specialist到b345的overspecialization，是不是说明了两者各自的地位，从而确立的balance这一最终的论调呢？

至于necessity和importance的区别，你自己也提到了。
======
总结一下的话：24楼的“首先”中关于necessity的分析我基本上是很赞同的，不过我想分歧是不是在于是否把这一点归到了Contrast里面吧？

imongUID: 140258

举个例子。当初在分析跑题文章的时候拿过一篇issue73做例子：题目说imagination is more important than knowledge，文章给了个回应叫做both are important and indispensible云云，对题目进行了彻底的藐视。再往下看，人家的b1写imagination的重要性，b2写knowledge的重要性，b3写only the interaction will do us good云云——整个一篇下来，连一点儿补救的机会都没有。完全跑题。——人家要的就是做这个比较，对more的response在哪里？？？从thesis到body，等效于只字未提。

问题估计还在这里也有。刚才请九月帮忙找那篇issue73来着，没找到。如果找出来估计能说明问题了就。2月份引用的时候的确是引用的那篇文章——恰恰和specialist不同，虽然外边的结构是先A后B的样子，却是的确的缺乏contrast.

看来这个例子如果不找到原文这样子写的确不合适了。

严重考虑重写这篇文章......需要找一个跟那个issue73一样的例子来说明问题。还是做例文分析来的好。

sarahongUID: 161981

不知有没有用？
Source from: pooh’s recommendation, Organizing the Main Body of the Argument,
https://bbs.gter.net/showthread....threadid=162883

7.3 The Structure of a Comparative Argument

Many essay topics call for a comparison between two elements (e.g., two characters in a story, two different economic theories, two different philosophical theories or scientific explanations, two different historical actions or characters or policies, and so on). Such essays introduce special factors which you need to take into account in designing the structure of the argument.

General Observations on Comparative Arguments

The key principles to remember in a comparative essay featuring two items are that you must, first, clarify for the reader precisely what you are comparing and, second, that you must keep the comparison alive throughout the essay. One of the commonest faults of a poor comparative essay is that the comparison becomes unbalanced, that is, the essay turns into an extensive discussion of one of the two items and gives a distinctly less important place to the other.

To clarify for the reader the precise nature of the comparison which the essay is exploring, you must in the introduction to a comparative essay specify exactly a very particular focus, so that the reader understands the limits of your comparative treatment of the subjects. For example, you cannot in a short essay or even in a longer research paper compare Marx's view of human nature with Freud's. That comparison is far too large. You must, therefore, narrow down the focus of the comparison considerably to compare one aspect common to both thinkers (e.g., by comparing Marx's view of the origins of evil with Freud's views of the same subject and by omitting everything else). The reader must understand what you are looking at and what you are not looking at in the comparison.

The thesis of a comparative essay will normally be a statement of a preference for one of the two things being compared or an interpretative assertion about the differences or similarities between the two. Thus, the argument will be an attempt to establish the validity of your interpretations of the two items.

The Structure of a Comparative Argument

Once the comparison and the basis of the argument have been defined, then you need to organize, as before, the sequence of paragraphs in the main body of the argument. In setting up the sequence of the paragraphs, you have some options, as follows:

1. You can keep the comparison alive in every paragraph, so that the argument discusses each half of the comparison in each paragraph. For example, in comparing Elisa and Nora, you could begin with a paragraph comparing their two situations, follow that with one comparing how they each react to the realization of how men have treated them, and finish with a comparison of how each woman ends up as a result of the conflict. The advantage of this structure is that it keeps the comparison between the two subjects constantly before the reader, and forces you to pay equal attention to each side of the comparison.

2. A second method for organizing the sequence of paragraphs in the main body of a comparative essay is to alternate between the two subjects. In the first paragraph of the argument, for example, you can focus on Elisa's relationship with her husband, pointing out how that defines certain things about her and her life. Then in the second paragraph of the main body, you discuss Nora's relationship with her husband, pointing out how that defines certain things about her and her life. Then in the third and fourth paragraphs you repeat the process, looking at another point in the comparison. The method gives you the chance to discuss each point in greater detail, and it also keeps the comparison alive for the reader, provided you keep alternating and making sure that you continue to discuss the same aspect of each character's life.

3. The third way of dealing with comparative essays is to say in a series of paragraphs all you want to argue about one side of the comparison and then, when you have said all you want to about that subject, switch to consider the other side of the comparison. Thus, the main body of the essay would tend to fall into two parts: in the first you consider the first element in the comparison, and in the second half you consider the second element in the comparison. The danger with this method (and it is a considerable and common problem) is that the comparison will become lop sided, that is, you will end up writing a great deal more about one of the two items than the other. The other real danger is that you will discuss both elements, but switch the criteria of the comparison in the second half, so that you discuss different features of the second item in the comparison from those you considered in the first. If this happens, then the comparison will fall apart, because you are not comparing the same features of the two things (like comparing, say, the body styling, the fuel economy, and the interior size of one car model with the engine capacity, the transmission, and the trunk space of another car model; such a comparison is difficult to follow because the writer does not compare the two models under a common feature).

Generally, in a short essay comparing two items it is better to follow the first or the second structural design for the comparison, rather than the third. If you are comparing three items, then you need to use the second or third principle, since dealing with three or four separate items in a single paragraph will make that paragraph too bulky.

另，原文附有实例的讲解，可以参考看看啦~

carrie_zhaoliUID: 159219

A MORE THAN B
disagree: admittedly, a is important,
however, without b, problems come out, thus b is important

b is more important than a
further more, -----
conclusion
A MORE THAN B
agree:
b important
without a ,the problems come out
a more important
further more
topic: SOMEONE should DO A MORE THAN B
AGREE:
WHY NEED TO DO A :though b is important, without a,problem, the important of a, a is more b
so---

carrie_zhaoliUID: 159219

感觉more的题目套路都差不多，但是在Ａ　ＭＯＲＥ　Ｂ　上的对比要做足，难度也最大

黑森林UID: 141841

补习完毕 :D