issue 138 同主题, 互拍.

枫丹UID: 166492

------题目------
Only through mistakes can there be discovery or progress.
------正文------
缺个例子，实在不知道举什么好了。 大家给出个主意吧！！

我对题目的理解：结论型
1，        题目得到结论的可能性原因：很多新的发现都是来源于失败， 但是这些成功都依赖于人对于克服失败，和从失败中汲取教训
2，        过度的强调失败的作用可能会带来更多的负面效果，因此人们应该强调避免不必要的失败
3，        有人提出对于失败的恐惧可能会舒服人们的积极性，从而减小发现的可能。但是如果人们更小心的避免不必要的失败， 他们可能会获得更多的机会。 缺个例子，实在不知道举什么好了。 大家给出个主意吧！！
There is much controversy about the function of the mistake. In our society, people is temping to share with a belief that only through mistakes can people gain advancement and make breakthrough. However, in my point of view, it is true that in some cases mistake can lead to great advance and discovery, but the opinion that mistake is the only way to discovery and progress is more harmful than beneficial to people and the society as a whole.

Firstly, although in some cases, mistake can help create discovery and progress, yet, the mistake should not be equaled to discovery or progress. When people think of the positive function of the mistake, they may naturally conjure up the experience of Tomas Edison or Paul Ehrlich. It is sure that before they made prominent discoveries, both of them experienced a great amount of mistakes. Therefore people believe that it is mistakes that create their success. However, faced with mistakes, if they did not choose to persist and learn their lesson from these mistakes, how could they gain success ultimately?  From this point, the mistake which is frequently considered as a valuable way to new finding and progress may be merely a prelude of the invention or advance. In fact only the person who could overcome mistakes and make effectively use of mistakes can gain success and make a great discovery at last.

Secondly, although in a certain degree the mistake is helpful to these discoveries and advancements, yet undue emphasis on the function of mistakes will result in harmful consequences. Over-emphasis on the power of mistake may provide an excuse for the failure of people, who intend to believe that mistake is nothing but a necessary way leading to success or new discover. With this idea, they may be not conscious and serious enough when they make their decisions or take measures. Nevertheless, as a matter of fact, in most cases, the mistake resulting from the carelessness dose not mean invention but bad consequence, and in fact not all of these mistakes can be corrected by human and even may have destructive effect on the people. To illustrate, thousands of office affair are caused because of people’s mistakes; lots of medical accidents may be reduced if surgeon exert more cautions; if engineer pay much attention to the subtle situation of the space shuttle, the Challenge Accident may be avoided. From these points, the more important things for people is to avoid needless mistake.

While, some people who oppose this ideas may assert that this fear of mistake will give people a shackle which limits their initiative ability and make them bypass value opportunity to make discoveries. Admittedly, this fear may undermine people’s initiative. Nevertheless, it is undeniable that if people be careful about these unnecessary mistakes, they may gain more chances to gain success. Because they will not waste their valuable time to solve some problems which can be avoid through consciousness. In addition, fewer mistakes may drive them to pay more attention to the key of the problem and solve them effectively. 少个例证，大家给点建议吧？

In sum, the people who can make use of the mistake can make great of discoveries, however the more useful way for people to make invention and advance it to avoid unnecessary mistake in their works. .

neverflyUID: 166610

第一个立意很好，但是后两个好像说的是一个意思而且还有点矛盾

例子吗，名言名句，或者日常生活，比如学生参加考试，编写程序，等等。自身经历也可以用阿

最初由 枫丹 发布
[B]------题目------
Only through mistakes can there be discovery or progress.
------正文------
缺个例子，实在不知道举什么好了。 大家给出个主意吧！！

我对题目..

以下省略...... [/B]

天晴了UID: 201592

No.1 issue 138 同主题, 互拍.
------题目------
Only through mistakes can there be discovery or progress.
------正文------
缺个例子，实在不知道举什么好了。 大家给出个主意吧！！

我对题目的理解：结论型
1， 题目得到结论的可能性原因：很多新的发现都是来源于失败， 但是这些成功都依赖于人对于克服失败，和从失败中汲取教训
2， 过度的强调失败的作用可能会带来更多的负面效果，因此人们应该强调避免不必要的失败
3， 有人提出对于失败的恐惧可能会舒服人们的积极性，从而减小发现的可能。但是如果人们更小心的避免不必要的失败， 他们可能会获得更多的机会。 缺个例子，实在不知道举什么好了。
【楼主把它看作一个结论，已经承认了Only through mistakes can there be discovery or progress.
只是在讨论这样认为，是不是benificial】


大家给出个主意吧！！
There is much controversy about the function of the mistake. In our society, people is temping to share with a belief that only through mistakes can people gain advancement and make breakthrough. However, in my point of view, it is true that in some cases mistake can lead to great advance and discovery, but the opinion that mistake is the only way to discovery and progress is more harmful than beneficial to people and the society as a whole. 【前面说得都挺好的，但最后半句别扭，要论证的是“mistake是不是the only way to d and p”，而你好像是把它当成既定事实了，来说这个是more harmful than beneficial】

Firstly, although in some cases, mistake can help create discovery and progress, yet, the mistake should not be equaled to discovery or progress. 【确实mistake不＝d and p，这里是要说mistake能有助于d and p，但是并不能说从mistake就一定能得出d and p吗？有点不明白 继续啦～】When people think of the positive function of the mistake, they may naturally conjure up the experience of Tomas Edison or Paul Ehrlich. It is sure that before they made prominent discoveries, both of them experienced a great amount of mistakes. Therefore people believe that it is mistakes that create their success. However, faced with mistakes, if they did not choose to persist and learn their lesson from these mistakes, how could they gain success ultimately? 【承认了是要through mistake才能得到d and p 的前提啦～～～，楼主已经，但是你说这个只有mistake是不够的，还要看如何对待mistake是吧？】From this point, the mistake which is frequently considered as a valuable way to new finding and progress may be merely a prelude of the invention or advance. In fact only the person who could overcome mistakes and make effectively use of mistakes can gain success and make a great discovery at last.  【最后一句还不错 又拽回来了 但是再加一句吧 仅仅有mistake，就能得到d and p，是不对的，因为only through mistake 是不够的，然后接着only the person who could overcome mistakes and make effectively use of mistakes can gain success and make a great discovery at last.】
Secondly, although in a certain degree the mistake is helpful to these discoveries and advancements, yet undue emphasis on the function of mistakes will result in harmful consequences.【跑了啦 我怎么觉得？？你说呢？题目说只有通过mistake才有D，P，但是这个TS说的是有的mistake会带来不好结果，并没有反驳只有通过mistake才有D，P】 Over-emphasis on the power of mistake may provide an excuse for the failure of people, who intend to believe that mistake is nothing but a necessary way leading to success or new discover. With this idea, they may be not conscious and serious enough when they make their decisions or take measures. Nevertheless, as a matter of fact, in most cases, the mistake resulting from the carelessness dose not mean invention but bad consequence, and in fact not all of these mistakes can be corrected by human and even may have destructive effect on the people. To illustrate, thousands of office affair are caused because of people’s mistakes; lots of medical accidents may be reduced if surgeon exert more cautions; if engineer pay much attention to the subtle situation of the space shuttle, the Challenge Accident may be avoided. From these points, the more important things for people is to avoid needless mistake. 【真的觉得跑了，楼主要小心啊】

While, some people who oppose this ideas may assert that this fear of mistake will give people a shackle which limits their initiative ability and make them bypass value opportunity to make discoveries. Admittedly, this fear may undermine people’s initiative. Nevertheless, it is undeniable that if people be careful about these unnecessary mistakes, they may gain more chances to gain success. Because they will not waste their valuable time to solve some problems which can be avoid through consciousness. In addition, fewer mistakes may drive them to pay more attention to the key of the problem and solve them effectively. 少个例证，大家给点建议吧？

In sum, the people who can make use of the mistake can make great of discoveries, however the more useful way for people to make invention and advance it to avoid unnecessary mistake in their works. .【结尾有意识回来了， 仅仅有mistake，就能得到d and p，是不对的，因为only through mistake 是不够的 】
【继续讨论啦～～个人观点  另外觉得logic是关键 很对游～～】

天晴了UID: 201592

我的138和你思路不同 也来报仇！！  越狠越好～～  ：)

枫丹UID: 166492

There is much controversy about the function of the mistake. In our society, people is temping to share with a belief that only through mistakes can people gain advancement and make breakthrough. However, in my point of view, it is true that in some cases mistake can lead to great advance and discovery, but the opinion that mistake is the only way to discovery and progress is more harmful than beneficial to people and the society as a whole. 【前面说得都挺好的，但最后半句别扭，要论证的是“mistake是不是the only way to d and p”，而你好像是把它当成既定事实了，来说这个是more harmful than beneficial】[我是想说明这种观点的正确和错误利弊,也就是我的入手点是这种观点的正确性和错误性,以及它所带来的后果

Firstly, although in some cases, mistake can help create discovery and progress, yet, the mistake should not be equaled to discovery or progress. 【确实mistake不＝d and p，这里是要说mistake能有助于d and p，但是并不能说从mistake就一定能得出d and p吗？有点不明白 继续啦～】我似乎应该说,这种观点会有misleading: mistake naturally lead to discovery and progress 对吧?When people think of the positive function of the mistake, they may naturally conjure up the experience of Tomas Edison or Paul Ehrlich. It is sure that before they made prominent discoveries, both of them experienced a great amount of mistakes. Therefore people believe that it is mistakes that create their success. However, faced with mistakes, if they did not choose to persist and learn their lesson from these mistakes, how could they gain success ultimately? 【承认了是要through mistake才能得到d and p 的前提啦～～～，楼主已经，但是你说这个只有mistake是不够的，还要看如何对待mistake是吧？】From this point, the mistake which is frequently considered as a valuable way to new finding and progress may be merely a prelude of the invention or advance. In fact only the person who could overcome mistakes and make effectively use of mistakes can gain success and make a great discovery at last. 【最后一句还不错 又拽回来了 但是再加一句吧 仅仅有mistake，就能得到d and p，是不对的，因为only through mistake 是不够的，然后接着only the person who could overcome mistakes and make effectively use of mistakes can gain success and make a great discovery at last.】
Secondly, although in a certain degree the mistake is helpful to these discoveries and advancements, yet undue emphasis on the function of mistakes will result in harmful consequences.【跑了啦 我怎么觉得？？你说呢？题目说只有通过mistake才有D，P，但是这个TS说的是有的mistake会带来不好结果，并没有反驳只有通过mistake才有D，P】这段想论述这种观点会带来的一个后果, 它会让人们不在乎失败,但是失败不只是意味着下一个成功,更多的时候会带来严重的后果,我也很郁闷,这到底是不是跑体啊?? Over-emphasis on the power of mistake may provide an excuse for the failure of people, who intend to believe that mistake is nothing but a necessary way leading to success or new discover. With this idea, they may be not conscious and serious enough when they make their decisions or take measures. Nevertheless, as a matter of fact, in most cases, the mistake resulting from the carelessness dose not mean invention but bad consequence, and in fact not all of these mistakes can be corrected by human and even may have destructive effect on the people. To illustrate, thousands of office affair are caused because of people’s mistakes; lots of medical accidents may be reduced if surgeon exert more cautions; if engineer pay much attention to the subtle situation of the space shuttle, the Challenge Accident may be avoided. From these points, the more important things for people is to avoid needless mistake. 【真的觉得跑了，楼主要小心啊】

While, some people who oppose this ideas may assert that this fear of mistake will give people a shackle which limits their initiative ability and make them bypass value opportunity to make discoveries. Admittedly, this fear may undermine people’s initiative. Nevertheless, it is undeniable that if people be careful about these unnecessary mistakes, they may gain more chances to gain success. Because they will not waste their valuable time to solve some problems which can be avoid through consciousness. In addition, fewer mistakes may drive them to pay more attention to the key of the problem and solve them effectively. 少个例证，大家给点建议吧？

In sum, the people who can make use of the mistake can make great of discoveries, however the more useful way for people to make invention and advance it to avoid unnecessary mistake in their works. .【结尾有意识回来了， 仅仅有mistake，就能得到d and p，是不对的，因为only through mistake 是不够的 】
【继续讨论啦～～个人观点 另外觉得logic是关键 很对游～～】
我不太想从only入手,但是还是要受它牵制,这篇写的不是很成功,没有下工夫去想.再讨论

鬼谷子UID: 159645

上次统计的时候你也改了不少吧：）这篇我看看

鬼谷子UID: 159645

------题目------
Only through mistakes can there be discovery or progress.
------正文------
缺个例子，实在不知道举什么好了。 大家给出个主意吧！！

我对题目的理解：结论型
1， 题目得到结论的可能性原因：很多新的发现都是来源于失败， 但是这些成功都依赖于人对于克服失败，和从失败中汲取教训
2， 过度的强调失败的作用可能会带来更多的负面效果，因此人们应该强调避免不必要的失败
3， 有人提出对于失败的恐惧可能会舒服人们的积极性，从而减小发现的可能。但是如果人们更小心的避免不必要的失败， 他们可能会获得更多的机会。 缺个例子，实在不知道举什么好了。 大家给出个主意吧！！ 【感觉2，3有点相似】
There is much controversy about the function of the mistake. In our society, people is temping to share with 【share with sb.】a belief that only through mistakes can people gain advancement and make breakthrough. However, in my point of view, it is true that in some cases mistake can lead to great advance and discovery, but the opinion that mistake is the only way to discovery and progress is more harmful than beneficial to people and the society as a whole. 【反对only】

Firstly, although in some cases, mistake can help create discovery and progress, yet, the mistake should not be equaled to discovery or progress. 【是through不是equal，这里你说的有问题，没有人说他们是equal的】 When people think of the positive function of the mistake, they may naturally conjure up the experience of Tomas Edison or Paul Ehrlich. It is sure that before they made prominent discoveries, both of them experienced a great amount of mistakes. Therefore people believe that it is mistakes that create their success. However, faced with mistakes, if they did not choose to persist and learn their lesson from these mistakes, how could they gain success ultimately? From this point, the mistake which is frequently considered as a valuable way to new finding and progress may be merely a prelude of the invention or advance. In fact only the person who could overcome mistakes and make effectively use of mistakes can gain success and make a great discovery at last. 【prelude，use，我觉得与through区别不大。你对于为什么成功解释的不清楚，应该强调他们的分析能力，总结能力使他们从错误中找到新的方法，然后成功。没有这些能力，只有错误，无法成功。另外，一个赞同的让步我觉得是有必要的，不能直接上来就反驳的，这样靶子还没立好的话，反驳不会有力的】

Secondly, although in a certain degree the mistake is helpful to these discoveries and advancements, yet undue emphasis on the function of mistakes will result in harmful consequences. Over-emphasis on the power of mistake may provide an excuse for the failure of people, who intend to believe that mistake is nothing but a necessary way leading to success or new discover. With this idea, they may be not conscious and serious enough when they make their decisions or take measures. Nevertheless, 【又转换了下一个话题了】as a matter of fact, in most cases, the mistake resulting from the carelessness dose not mean invention but bad consequence, and in fact not all of these mistakes can be corrected by human and even may have destructive effect on the people. To illustrate, thousands of office affair 【？】are caused because of people’s mistakes; lots of medical accidents may be reduced if surgeon exert more cautions; if engineer pay much attention to the subtle situation of the space shuttle, the Challenge Accident may be avoided. From these points, the more important things for people is to avoid needless mistake.

While, some people who oppose this ideas may assert that this fear of mistake will give people a shackle which limits their initiative ability and make them bypass value opportunity to make discoveries. 【我觉得这样提出论点的方法不好，这个人们如何认为就是有待证明的，而把论点放在后面也会让力度不够】Admittedly, this fear may undermine people’s initiative. Nevertheless, it is undeniable that if people be careful about these unnecessary mistakes, they may gain more chances to gain success. Because they will not waste their valuable time to solve some problems which can be avoid through consciousness. In addition, fewer mistakes may drive them to pay more attention to the key of the problem and solve them effectively. 少个例证，大家给点建议吧？ 【论述的不够】

In sum, the people who can make use of the mistake can make great of discoveries, however the more useful way for people to make invention and advance it to avoid unnecessary mistake in their works. .

  【我觉得有一个对于mistake作用肯定的让步段比较好，B2混淆了两个问题，B3的论述不够。加油！】  

枫丹UID: 166492

谢谢鬼骨子, 我现在就是遇到这样一个,问题总是不感立靶子,害怕让自己的论证不够有力,所以就在第一段,既立既破, 搞的最后一段无话好说,只好自己找纰漏,然后补充,有的题目还好用,遇到这样的题目就变成重复了.我很迷惑:让步和立靶子的区别到底在那里?如何把握这个度呢??切盼指点!!

鬼谷子UID: 159645

让步是补充你的观点的，在论证了你的观点之后为了思考全面，从你观点的反面或者其他方面来交代一下。

而立靶子是你要反驳的内容交代清楚，然后根据这个靶子来提出你的观点。

我觉得这篇文章你是把让步省略了，只用了两句话大概说了一下。而且，似乎你把这个不完整的让步也同时当成了一个靶子。而实际上你要反驳的靶子跟这个让步不是完全相同的。你的让步应该是mistake在一定程度上有用，而靶子应该是only。后面就可以对only来仔细论述。

我的想法。

猫猫624UID: 171232

我认为在这篇文章中让步即立靶子.先论证题中论点的正面.即失败帮助进步,然后在论证在某些情况下有问题.即失败本身不意味这就一定成功,而且失败会使人信心丧失,反而不利于成功.
建议楼主,第二段写一个正面的,就为下面两段的论述立了把子.

枫丹UID: 166492

最初由 鬼谷子 发布
[B]让步是补充你的观点的，在论证了你的观点之后为了思考全面，从你观点的反面或者其他方面来交代一下。

而立靶子是你要反驳的内容交代清楚，然后根据这个靶子来提出你的观..

以下省略...... [/B]

鬼骨子:
我似乎有些明白了.立靶是要对自己要攻击的点论述展开的说
其实我可以这样说的,对不对??
1, 很难否认在有些情况下,只有mistake可以让人们发现问题的关键,找到解决问题的突破. 最后一句, 但是只有失败才能成功吗?
2, 尽管得到成功的人都经历过失败,但是是他们自身的persistance和分析问题的能力决定了成功. Thomas Edison, Paul Ehrlich
3,如果人们过分的强调失败在成功中所起的作用, 会使人们过于大意,以为失败是正常的,造成不必要的损失. 比如chanlleger incident.

枫丹UID: 166492

最初由 猫猫624 发布
[B]我认为在这篇文章中让步即立靶子.先论证题中论点的正面.即失败帮助进步,然后在论证在某些情况下有问题.即失败本身不意味这就一定成功,而且失败会使人信心丧失,反而不利于成..

以下省略...... [/B]

我认为你这样写也没有问题. 但是题目只是说失败是成功之母,并没有说失败意味着成功啊? 那你第二个观点是不是不太合适呢?是不是应该说他不是唯一的前提,其实这两种说法差别也不大.在写的时候肯定会把这个之间的关系调理好的.就应该没问题了.

ivyshoulUID: 195537

There is much controversy about the function of the mistake. In our society, people is temping to share [with] a belief that only through mistakes can people gain advancement and make breakthrough. However, in my point of view, it is true that in some cases mistake can lead to great advance and discovery, but the opinion that mistake is the only way to discovery and progress is more harmful than beneficial to people and the society as a whole. [哇,大家一般都说Only说得过激了,楼主还要论证more harmful啊…]

Firstly, although in some cases, mistake can help create discovery and progress, yet, the mistake should not be equaled to discovery or progress. When people think of the positive function of the mistake, they may naturally conjure up the experience of Tomas Edison or Paul Ehrlich. It is sure that before they made prominent discoveries, both of them experienced a great amount of mistakes. Therefore people believe that it is mistakes that create their success. However, faced with mistakes, if they did not choose to persist and learn their lesson from these mistakes, how could they gain success ultimately? From this point, the mistake which is frequently considered as a valuable way to new finding and progress may be merely a prelude of the invention or advance. In fact only the person who could overcome mistakes and make effectively use of mistakes can gain success and make a great discovery at last. [有点混乱啊,不如先写正面的例子,there are discoveries and development through mistakes,然后再转一下,however,是个人的态度起了作用]

Secondly, although in a certain degree the mistake is helpful to these discoveries and advancements, yet undue emphasis on the function of mistakes will result in harmful consequences. Over-emphasis on the power of mistake may provide an excuse for the failure of people, who intend to believe that mistake is nothing but a necessary way leading to success or new discover. With this idea, they may be not conscious and serious enough when they make their decisions or take measures. Nevertheless, as a matter of fact, in most cases, the mistake resulting from the carelessness dose not mean invention but bad consequence, and in fact not all of these mistakes can be corrected by human and even may have destructive effect on the people. To illustrate, thousands of office affair are caused because of people’s mistakes; lots of medical accidents may be reduced if surgeon exert more cautions; if engineer pay much attention to the subtle situation of the space shuttle, the Challenge Accident may be avoided. From these points, the more important things for people is to avoid needless mistake. [怎么跳到了undue mistake啦…我跟楼主的写法太不同了…]

While, some people who oppose this ideas may assert that this fear of mistake will give people a shackle which limits their initiative ability and make them bypass value opportunity to make discoveries. Admittedly, this fear may undermine people’s initiative. Nevertheless, it is undeniable that if people be careful about these unnecessary mistakes, they may gain more chances to gain success. Because they will not waste their valuable time to solve some problems which can be avoid through consciousness. In addition, fewer mistakes may drive them to pay more attention to the key of the problem and solve them effectively. 少个例证，大家给点建议吧？[就是说mistakes 分constructive和unconstructive 两种,为何不在上一段前面说明呢? ]

In sum, the people who can make use of the mistake can make great of discoveries, however the more useful way for people to make invention and advance it to avoid unnecessary mistake in their works. .

猫猫624UID: 171232

最初由 枫丹 发布
[B][QUOTE]最初由 猫猫624 发布
[B]我认为在这篇文章中让步即立靶子.先论证题中论点的正面.即失败帮助进步,然后在论证在某些情况下有问题.即失败本身不意味这就一定成..

以下省略...... [/B]

首先注意题目是错误是进步的唯一途径.不要把他简单理解成失败是成功之母,他们之间是有差别的.

驳斥错误是成功的唯一途径,首先进步并不一定由失败而来.我的第3段,即错误不是进步的必要条件.
然后失败也不意味着一定成功.我的第4段.即错误不是进步的充分条件.

我的理论就是驳斥错误与进步之间即没有充分也没有必然关系.

虽然题目好象只要论述失败与进步之间的必然关系,但是我觉的把他们之间的关系论述清楚应该不算跑题.这个观点在同主题给的范文里也有.

不要用失败是成功之母把题目转化了.

枫丹UID: 166492

最初由 猫猫624 发布
[B][QUOTE]最初由 枫丹 发布
[B][QUOTE]最初由 猫猫624 发布
[B]我认为在这篇文章中让步即立靶子.先论证题中论点的正面.即失败帮助进步,然后在论证在某些情况..

以下省略...... [/B]

呵呵,我又看了你的作文似乎第三个观点也是在说失败不是充分条件,除非你说有些成功也可以不经过失败就可以得到,那才是证明他的必要性不存在啊!!
我当初就是这么想的,然后把观点有改成, 有些结果是不允许失败的.
因此不能过度强调失败的正面作用.
最后把自己给饶进去了.很是失败.明天这篇要重写了.
对了,你看看我重新改的那个提纲是不是还好些了?
你明天的拍子,我预定一个好吧?一会发上去!