[重要]Naiba369 AW修改提高法 3 《庖奶解鼠》之“言之有用” 点评so猫之issue87

naiba369UID: 131655

当新手逐渐过渡为老手，字数不断增加时，可能有人就会抱怨，自己写的倒挺多，但是感觉挺混乱的

下面的这篇批改就是这对这种问题

提出的解决问题是要－－“言之有用”：你写出的任何一句话，都要起到它相应的作用，而非凑字或是无病呻吟

这是一种意识，是要加强的，从思想上！！！

naiba369UID: 131655

猫的原链接

https://bbs.gter.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=254112

naiba369UID: 131655

颜色说明一下
1。红色，表示“错误”
2。洋红，表示“用法欠妥当”
3。蓝色，是我的批注
4。绿色，表示“很精彩的文字”

------题目------
In any field of inquiry, the beginner is more likely than the expert to make important discoveries.
------正文------
If one looks carefully in the history of science, he/she may find out that it is usually the beginners rather than the experts in the fields of inquiry that make important discoveries and break the old disciplines. I fundamentally agree with the speaker that the beginners tend to contribute important discoveries more likely前面才把题目叙述完，这里再说一遍就有点多余了。我的改法：I fundamentally agree with the statement above; however, the contribution of the beginner should not overrated 改为：be  overrated and the function of experts in the process of inquiry should not be overlooked. However后面的话的有点重复了，直接改为：however, we should realize that both the beginners and the experts play a irreplaceable role correspondingly.

Why, people may wonder, do the beginners tend to make the discoveries more likely compared with the experts? As far as I am concerned, the reasons lie in the two ways: the personal condition and the restriction from the outside. Firstly, as we know, the beginners are often more enthusiastic and ambitious to "leave something in the page of history", since they are nobody until they make important discoveries and even awake a revolution in the field. Thus they might stay night burn the mid-night oil to do experiments, work without relaxing for a week to analyze the authenticity of a result, and consume their private time and space to solve a problem. Meanwhile the experts, often aged, are necessary to sacrifice their health to do so; even if they are willing to dedicate themselves as the beginners do, they may have no such capability since the healthy condition and decease trouble. The more time spent in inquiry, usually the more discoveries could be found. Therefore it is quite reasonable for the beginners to make important discoveries more often.

【庖奶解鼠】：

Why, people may wonder, do the beginners tend to make the discoveries more likely compared with the experts? 这里的承接不是很好。不客气的说，这个body是“行尸走肉”，因为它没有“soul”，而个soul就是ts句，你没有很清晰的表达出来，。你这以设问句还头。想问你，那个why是和上面那处衔接的呢？中间的思维有个跳跃。而后再提出问句之后，没有给读者提出一个明确的答复后，就急于开始分类比较论证了。这是你的一个问题----ts句不明了

As far as I am concerned, the reasons lie in the two ways: the personal condition and the restriction from the outside. 这句是下面分类论证的总领句。但是就如前面分析说述，你还没有交待清楚你要论述的主题，就开始论述了，是否有点可笑呢？（可能说的有点重了，但都是为你好，请见谅）

Firstly, as we know, the beginners are often more enthusiastic and ambitious to "leave something in the page of history", since they are nobody until they make important discoveries and even awake a revolution in the field. Thus they might stay night to do experiments, work without relaxing for a week to analyze the authenticity of a result, and consume their private time and space to solve a problem. Meanwhile the experts, often aged, are necessary to sacrifice their health to do so; even if they are willing to dedicate themselves as the beginners do, they may have no such capability since the healthy condition and decease trouble. The more time spent in inquiry, usually the more discoveries could be found. 分为两个层次。分别以firstly和moreover做为标志词领衔，结构上还是比较清晰的。但是，结构的上的清晰不能掩盖内容立论上的空洞与肤浅。首先看firstly。你说beginner强的原因是enthusiastic and ambitious to "leave something in the page of history"。这个立论角度就显得不是很高明，显得你的思维很功利，beginner的原动力就是为了“青史留名”，太功利了。而倘若你说，beginner虽然学的少，但相应的，没有种种知识框架的束缚，他们用激情来创造发现。是不是显得，起码从道德层面上而言，就比你原先的立论要高的多。Meanwhile这里你做了一个假设，那些expert都是耊耄老人，身体欠佳，但这显然是不成立的。你为了自己论述的方便，将一个问题推向了一个极端。我个人觉得，年老都不是问题。关键是，当成为expert后：1。你自身被这种已有的条条框框所限制，很难有所作为。2。当人功成名就时，一般就不思进取了。。。。

Therefore it is quite reasonable for the beginners to make important discoveries more often.得出结论



In addition, and the more important in my opinion, the beginners are disturbed less by the environment outside-- restraint, to be more exactly, from the public expectations and social view. For supporting examples one needs to look no further than the academic field in which the names of the beginners are always not referred while the names of the top scientists are titled in black often. Take Einstein, as one of the most famous physicist in the 20th Century. At the early time when he tried to solve the problem of time and space, no one else concerned what he was doing and to what extent his research went on. He could think himself without reports and interviews; also he was not afraid to make mistakes in the process; moreover, he could bravely raise a question towards the doctrine without the fear of loss in respect and reputation. However, later when he became the founders of Relativity Theory, he once said that he could never either find a quiet and peaceful place to have a profound thinking or make decision based on his own will rather than that of public, since "so many people are expecting me to do something to change their life". In all, the restriction outside fettered the experts the same time bringing tremendous reputation to the experts; therefore, compared with the experts, the beginner have more space to do things actually important and more courage to do things they think right and then to make discoveries.

【庖奶解鼠】：

In addition, and the more important in my opinion, the beginners are disturbed less by the environment outside-- restraint, to be more exactly, from the public expectations and social view. 现在才算把你的逻辑理清了。在body1 里你提到As far as I am concerned, the reasons lie in the two ways: the personal condition and the restriction from the outside.你body1，将的是the personal condition.这里开始讲the outsider restriction。但我想说的是，以常人的思维习惯。一般都会以为你将会在body1里将那两个展开。而这个“In addition”是进一步论证了。如果是这样的话，建议你做如下改动。1。将body1 中的“Why, people may wonder, do the beginners tend to make the discoveries more likely compared with the experts? As far as I am concerned, the reasons lie in the two ways: the personal condition and the restriction from the outside”单独列为一段。2。将body2 以Secondly来头。

For supporting examples one needs to look no further than the academic field in which the names of the beginners are always not referred while the names of the top scientists are titled in black often.这是一个承上启下句。但我觉得不是很必要。1。它没有从进一步深化ts，从理论上阐明你的立论。2。就是说“在科技领域这种例子比比皆是”那你直接说，For instance, in the area of science and technology,…很简洁的，何必说那么多没有的话呢？

Take Einstein, as one of the most famous physicist in the 20th Century. At the early time when he tried to solve the problem of time and space, no one else concerned what he was doing and to what extent his research went on. He could think himself without reports and interviews; also he was not afraid to make mistakes in the process; moreover, he could bravely raise a question towards the doctrine without the fear of loss in respect and reputation.用Einstein未成名前举例。但这里你的论述组织的不是很好。 这是你的叙述次序：1。concerned what he was doing and to what extent his research went on 2。He could think himself without reports and interviews 3。he was not afraid to make mistakes in the process; moreover, he could bravely raise a question towards the doctrine without the fear of loss in respect and reputation 其中的逻辑思路不是很清晰，不是那种层层深入的，而是想到那说到那。因为你的ts句是关于outsider restraint的，所以我这样改：首先说，由于Einstein还是beginner（回应题目）再说2。，指明没有外界干扰。然后说1。3。再没有关注的前提下，可以自由的选择课题，提出置疑。

However, later when he became the founders of Relativity Theory, he once said that he could never either find a quiet and peaceful place to have a profound thinking or make decision based on his own will rather than that of public, since "so many people are expecting me to do something to change their life".对比，其成名后的境遇。

In all, the restriction outside fettered the experts the same time bringing tremendous reputation to the experts; therefore, compared with the experts, the beginner have more space to do things actually important and more courage to do things they think right and then to make discoveries.小结



However, it cannot be implied from the analysis above that the contribution of the beginners is more important and the experts are of no use. As Newton has mentioned (and I paraphrase):" I can see farer than my ancestors in science, since I am standing on the shoulder of the giants in scientific history." Obviously this enunciates the guidance and foundation contributed from the experts. Experts usually function as the leader of the team that they could sharply point out the potential opportunity of development and hidden problems under a seemingly perfect mask. Without them the beginner who have not formed a whole vision of the field and have been puzzled when facing with numerous possibility. The instances supporting this point of view are simple for any greenhand researcher in lab to list, especially the ones who are facing troubles and turning for professors' suggestion. When utilized properly, the beginners could avoid many troubles and misleading due to the help from experts. Thus the function of experts in the process of making discoveries should not be neglected.

【庖奶解鼠】

However, it cannot be implied from the analysis above that the contribution of the beginners is more important and the experts are of no use. 这里这是说，不能过分夸大beginner的作用，而忽略expert的作用。但是，为了逻辑衔接的更通畅，还是要在后面概括性的提出expert的作用。我的改法：From my view, experts are much stronger than beginners as they have more experience and knowledge, which will let  

As Newton has mentioned (and I paraphrase):" I can see farer than my ancestors in science, since I am standing on the shoulder of the giants in scientific history." 引用名言。但不是很直接的那种。因为站在巨人肩上和expert对发现有很大的作用不能划等号。你的潜在前提是，expert为后人留下了足够的经验与知识。但问题是，他们是否也留下了大量的伪证与谬论呢。就如Aristotle的很多论断是阻碍后代科技的发展的，但他也是一代宗师，更是expert了。所以这里的令一个前提是，后代人需要辨正的认识expert

Obviously this enunciates the guidance and foundation contributed from the experts.基于上面的论述，这个obviously就很牵强了。

Experts usually function as the leader of the team that they could sharply point out the potential opportunity of development and hidden problems under a seemingly perfect mask. Without them the beginner who have not formed a whole vision of the field and have been puzzled when facing with numerous possibility. 从正反两方面开始论述expert对discovery的帮助。

The instances supporting this point of view are simple for any greenhand 改为：green hand ，greenhorn 都可以researcher in lab to list, especially the ones who are facing troubles and turning for professors' suggestion. When utilized properly, the beginners could avoid many troubles and misleading due to the help from experts. Thus the function of experts in the process of making discoveries should not be neglected.这里的问题就是，从Newton后都是大段的理论论证，没有事例，说服力不够。不要用“这种例子举不胜举，因此我就不说了”这种话，人家就是看你的论证，怎么能将例子省了呢。



To sum up, it is true that beginner tend to make discoveries more often based on my analysis above; however, the function of experts should not be blamed to nothing but wasteful. Blame多和for连用，你的前面是nothing后面是wasteful词性都不对应Only when the functions of these two are combined altogether and properly, can the important discoveries be found more likely, and much faster and more easily.


小结：
1。大眼看这篇文章，语言流畅，论证饱满，但是细看就。。。问题多多了

2。这里要提到的是：当你的能力不是说不出东西，而是控制不了字数的时候，你就要好好想想，我写的每一句话，是不是都有其相应的作用。当然这种话，易说难做，但绝对要有这么一个意识―――在写的时候，不断问自己，我写这句话是干什么？是深化主题？还是加强说服力。只有当你具备意识了，以后才能提高。

3。结构上的问题还是有的。特别是body1和body2，结构上不清晰。究其原因是：表述上追求一种风格，却把最基本的，最简洁的那种“新手”写法抛弃了，可以说是，弊大于利吧。

加油了

so猫UID: 148633

小白鼠来了
看看我是怎么死的~~~

然后提出我的问题

既然是这样
naiba可否有在短时间内改正的建议?

我剩下的不过10天
10天而已

然后不得不说一个比一个批得狠
一个比一个批得见血

好 鼓励鼓励~~~

flyingwindUID: 189320

总的看来我和naba的意见有很多不同的地方，不过我很菜哈，大家一起来看看

Why, people may wonder, do the beginners tend to make the discoveries more likely compared with the experts? 这里的承接不是很好。不客气的说，这个body是“行尸走肉”，因为它没有“soul”，而个soul就是ts句，你没有很清晰的表达出来，。你这以设问句还头。想问你，那个why是和上面那处衔接的呢？中间的思维有个跳跃。而后再提出问句之后，没有给读者提出一个明确的答复后，就急于开始分类比较论证了。这是你的一个问题----ts句不明了

这里有社么问题吗？我觉得why用的很好啊，不一定每个ts都是个称述句吧？这里why说了这段的目的的啊

As far as I am concerned, the reasons lie in the two ways: the personal condition and the restriction from the outside. 这句是下面分类论证的总领句。但是就如前面分析说述，你还没有交待清楚你要论述的主题，就开始论述了，是否有点可笑呢？（可能说的有点重了，但都是为你好，请见谅）

论述的问题 lie in the two ways，这里不会有问题的吧？


In addition, and the more important in my opinion, the beginners are disturbed less by the environment outside-- restraint, to be more exactly, from the public expectations and social view. 现在才算把你的逻辑理清了。在body1 里你提到As far as I am concerned, the reasons lie in the two ways: the personal condition and the restriction from the outside.你body1，将的是the personal condition.这里开始讲the outsider restriction。但我想说的是，以常人的思维习惯。一般都会以为你将会在body1里将那两个展开。而这个“In addition”是进一步论证了。如果是这样的话，建议你做如下改动。1。将body1 中的“Why, people may wonder, do the beginners tend to make the discoveries more likely compared with the experts? As far as I am concerned, the reasons lie in the two ways: the personal condition and the restriction from the outside”单独列为一段。2。将body2 以Secondly来头。

这里不一定要写在1段吧，特别是2个理由都要展开的时候，老外也这样写的 啊

For supporting examples one needs to look no further than the academic field in which the names of the beginners are always not referred while the names of the top scientists are titled in black often.这是一个承上启下句。但我觉得不是很必要。1。它没有从进一步深化ts，从理论上阐明你的立论。2。就是说“在科技领域这种例子比比皆是”那你直接说，For instance, in the area of science and technology,…很简洁的，何必说那么多没有的话呢？

？？？老外都这样说的啊。For instance, in the area of science and technology,…很简洁的，太普通了吧

As Newton has mentioned (and I paraphrase):" I can see farer than my ancestors in science, since I am standing on the shoulder of the giants in scientific history." 引用名言。但不是很直接的那种。因为站在巨人肩上和expert对发现有很大的作用不能划等号。你的潜在前提是，expert为后人留下了足够的经验与知识。
这样说可以把，我认为哈。至于“但问题是，他们是否也留下了大量的伪证与谬论呢。”当然有！但是就牛同学的这个话来说，这样的事情不用考虑的把。不然，大家都不要quote了，任何人说的话都可以找到反例。

naiba369UID: 131655

Why, people may wonder, do the beginners tend to make the discoveries more likely compared with the experts? 这里的承接不是很好。不客气的说，这个body是“行尸走肉”，因为它没有“soul”，而个soul就是ts句，你没有很清晰的表达出来，。你这以设问句还头。想问你，那个why是和上面那处衔接的呢？中间的思维有个跳跃。而后再提出问句之后，没有给读者提出一个明确的答复后，就急于开始分类比较论证了。这是你的一个问题----ts句不明了

这里有社么问题吗？我觉得why用的很好啊，不一定每个ts都是个称述句吧？这里why说了这段的目的的啊

我不是说，why不好，而是说，当你提出一个问题的时候，如果它还达不到“不答自明”的时候，你就很有必要将它的答案说出来。这些话，我个人觉得是不能省的。

As far as I am concerned, the reasons lie in the two ways: the personal condition and the restriction from the outside. 这句是下面分类论证的总领句。但是就如前面分析说述，你还没有交待清楚你要论述的主题，就开始论述了，是否有点可笑呢？（可能说的有点重了，但都是为你好，请见谅）

论述的问题 lie in the two ways，这里不会有问题的吧？

Lie in the two ways，本身从句法上而言，很好。但问题是，当你还没有给出一个清晰的论证目标时，你匆匆展开论证是不是有点。。。苦练屠龙刀法，最终发现根本没有什么龙可以屠。。。岂不可笑？

In addition, and the more important in my opinion, the beginners are disturbed less by the environment outside-- restraint, to be more exactly, from the public expectations and social view. 现在才算把你的逻辑理清了。在body1 里你提到As far as I am concerned, the reasons lie in the two ways: the personal condition and the restriction from the outside.你body1，将的是the personal condition.这里开始讲the outsider restriction。但我想说的是，以常人的思维习惯。一般都会以为你将会在body1里将那两个展开。而这个“In addition”是进一步论证了。如果是这样的话，建议你做如下改动。1。将body1 中的“Why, people may wonder, do the beginners tend to make the discoveries more likely compared with the experts? As far as I am concerned, the reasons lie in the two ways: the personal condition and the restriction from the outside”单独列为一段。2。将body2 以Secondly来头。

这里不一定要写在1段吧，特别是2个理由都要展开的时候，老外也这样写的 啊

主要，从我个人的角度感觉，就猫这篇文章的纹理来看，如果不做上述改动就令人的逻辑很论乱。

任何东西都要放到一个具体的语言环境中，老外的用法也许地道，但关键是在那篇具体的文章里是这样子，而在猫的这篇文章里，这样写，就给人逻辑混乱的错觉。

具体问题要具体分析吗

For supporting examples one needs to look no further than the academic field in which the names of the beginners are always not referred while the names of the top scientists are titled in black often.这是一个承上启下句。但我觉得不是很必要。1。它没有从进一步深化ts，从理论上阐明你的立论。2。就是说“在科技领域这种例子比比皆是”那你直接说，For instance, in the area of science and technology,…很简洁的，何必说那么多没有的话呢？

？？？老外都这样说的啊。For instance, in the area of science and technology,…很简洁的，太普通了吧

普通也没什么错呀，其实文章的最高境界是――简单，出奇的简单

想想海明威的文字吧，那叫“弃烦化简”，那是境界！！！

关键是，清晰！。你看猫上面那段文字，1秒钟内能明白她讲的是什么意思呢？

这涉及到中西方思维的差异

具体例子请看https://bbs.gter.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=254041 的中间“小结”处

As Newton has mentioned (and I paraphrase):" I can see farer than my ancestors in science, since I am standing on the shoulder of the giants in scientific history." 引用名言。但不是很直接的那种。因为站在巨人肩上和expert对发现有很大的作用不能划等号。你的潜在前提是，expert为后人留下了足够的经验与知识。

这样说可以把，我认为哈。至于“但问题是，他们是否也留下了大量的伪证与谬论呢。”当然有！但是就牛同学的这个话来说，这样的事情不用考虑的把。不然，大家都不要quote了，任何人说的话都可以找到反例。

你说的没错，但问题的关键，文章中出线的任何一个例子都是要有其作用的，最好都是正面的作用。

当讲出一个例子后，就一定要分析，其目的就是要往你本段的ts句上―――“靠套”，否则就是例子的堆砌，支持不了你的论据

具体对于猫引用Newton的这句话，我觉得问题是：”站在巨人肩上” 和 “expert对发现有很大的作用”中间存在一个很大的“思维断层”，其问题的本质就是―――思维跳跃的太快，还有就是，对这个例子的切入点没有想好就匆匆下手