ISSUE104 请指教

禾日因心UID: 174510

104 "It is primarily through formal education that a culture tries to perpetuate ideas it favors and discredit the ideas it fears."               

   Is it real primarily through formal education that a culture tries perpetuate the ideas it favors and discredit the ideas it fears? To some extent, I can not agree with the author's assertion completely. Different cultures have different situations, and education, especially formal education has diverse concepts rooted in nations.

   Firstly, what's the concept of "formal" education? Does it only mean that students should go to the schools which are formally approved by the government, and whose courses, even books  have to be credited by the education department? If the definition of the "formal education" is in this way, we would find that it's not the culture to perpetuate the ideas it favors or not, but a group of people in certain period utilize so-called "formal education" to enslave people's minds, to shape their view catering to their tastes, on purpose of consolidating their authority or reign.

   More than two thousand years ago, in China, there appeared different thoughts flourishing in Zhangguo Period. People believed in their own favorite philosophy. However, until Han Dynasty, some scholars exerted their influential on the emperor to persuade him to authorize Confusion as the orthodox thoughts. Then other thoughts were announced illegal. Through this, it is not culture that try to perpetuate or discard something, but people in power who decide which favor or disfavor.

   In addition, I take side on the author's assertion that through education, culture is passed down with certain propensity. But if it refers to "formal" one, I put the suspicion into it. As we know, like some tribes in the forest, such like the aboriginals, who are isolated by modern civilization, still remain their original educations. They use nature to instruct their progeny how to survive hunt prey, to go on their unique ritual. School is Greek to them, let alone the formal education .Formal education is not the primarily way for culture's tastes. Even today, family education is prevailing in the US. These children receive education at home, but the characteristic of their own culture still root in their minds.

  Although education is closely relation to culture, whether the formal one is so principle for a culture to perpetuate the ideas it likes or discard its dislikes, and whether a culture tries to cater to its propensity through formal education, we still need more cautious consideration.

[ Last edited by staralways on 2005-5-13 at 09:57 ]

禾日因心UID: 174510

贴出来再看，发现拼写错了 Confusion ---- Confucianism，真是粗心呀
希望大家能帮我看看文章结构，和思路什么的
说实话，我自己觉的有问题，但又不知道该怎么改

charliehyUID: 171503

首先你写的是Issue104不是Issue144,标题写错啦
104 "It is primarily through formal education that a culture tries to perpetuate ideas it favors and discredit the ideas it fears."               

   Is it real primarily through formal education that a culture tries perpetuate the ideas it favors and discredit the ideas it fears? To some extent, I can not agree with the author's assertion completely. Different cultures have different situations, and education, especially formal education has diverse concepts rooted in nations.

   Firstly, what's the concept of "formal" education? Does it only mean that students should go to the schools which are formally approved by the government, and whose courses, even books  have to be credited by the education department? If the definition of the "formal education" is in this way, we would find that it's not the culture to perpetuate the ideas it favors or not, but a group of people in certain period utilize so-called "formal education" to enslave people's minds, to shape their view catering to their tastes, on purpose of consolidating their authority or reign.

   More than two thousand years ago, in China, there appeared different thoughts flourishing in Zhangguo Period. People believed in their own favorite philosophy. However, until Han Dynasty, some scholars exerted their influential on the emperor to persuade him to authorize Confucianism as the orthodox thoughts. Then other thoughts were announced illegal. Through this, it is not culture that try to perpetuate or discard something, but people in power who decide which favor or disfavor.

   In addition, I take side on the author's assertion that through education, culture is passed down with certain propensity. But if it refers to "formal" one, I put the suspicion into it. As we know, like some tribes in the forest, such like the aboriginals, who are isolated by modern civilization, still remain their original educations. They use nature to instruct their progeny how to survive hunt prey, to go on their unique ritual. School is Greek to them, let alone the formal education .Formal education is not the primarily way for culture's tastes. Even today, family education is prevailing in the US. These children receive education at home, but the characteristic of their own culture still root in their minds.

  Although education is closely relation（related） to culture, whether the formal one is so principle(principle是个名词，你说的应该是重要的意思，是principal吧) for a culture to perpetuate the ideas it likes or discard its dislikes, and whether a culture tries to cater to its propensity through formal education（这两个Whether说的是同一层意思，好像也没有深入或递进的意思，是不是选其一写就可以了。如果都写，似乎有点重复累赘了）, we still need more cautious consideration.

我首先理了一下这篇文章的思路。
第一段，        提出来一个问题：是否主要通过正规的教育来使文化保留……消除……？你所持的观点是不能完全同意作者的这种说法，理由是文化情况的不同，尤其是不同的国家对于正规教育的内涵有不同的理解。
第二段，        主要谈了对正规教育的理解。如果狭隘的认为正规教育就是进该进的学校、读该读的书，那么所谓的正规教育是为了在某一个时期来迎合某些人的口味来巩固他们的实权和统治。
第三段，        举了一个罢黜百家独尊儒术的例子，说明不是文化保留……消除……，而是一些实权人物favor or disfavor。
第四段，        退一步同意作者的观点（文化通过正规教育来传递一定的propensity），则无法解释在没有“正规教育”的原始部落中，人们怎么来传递文化的propensity。哪怕在家庭教育流行的美国，家庭教育也没有影响到孩子们自己心中的文化。
第五段，        最后回过头来点题

题目：一种文化要想保留它认为好的东西，消除它认为不好的东西，主要是通过正规的教育。

我感觉这篇文章写的有一点糊涂，思路不是很清晰。首先你不完全同意这种观点，因为文化情况的不同，尤其是不同的国家对于正规教育的内涵有不同的理解。这个不错，那么下面应该说明对正规教育的内涵有什么不同的理解，因为哪些不同理解造成了“……不是主要通过正规教育来……”的。在你的第二段中的确谈到了对正规教育的理解，不过重点是在狭隘的正规教育的目的和意义上了。加上第三段的例子，说明了有一些实权人物通过这样一种正规教育的手段来巩固自己的统治，而不是a culture tries to perpetuate ideas it favors and discredit the ideas it fears。说到这里，偏离主线了（虽然说第三段的例子挺不错的，值得学习），In other words, 既然你说到所谓的正规教育是为了迎合某些人的口味来巩固他们的实权和统治，那么不还是承认了题目的意思“主要通过正规教育来……”，只不过这种正规教育是你称为的so-called 正规教育罢了。我觉得这里题目的关键是“primarily through”，而不是culture或者别的其他什么来perpetuate ideas it favors and discredit the ideas it fears。
在第四段中你转回来了，这一段的论述是切合题目的。问题就是出在第二和第三段中的，也是全文的重点论述所在。
我认为如果要说到对正规教育内涵的不同理解，就要摆出各种各样的理解，不单单是你所说的so-called正规教育。你有你的理解，我有我的理解，当然，我理解的正规教育可能是在你理解的范围之外。因此通过我的这种教育来达到culture…perpetuate…and…discredit…在你看来就不是通过正规教育的手段了。换句话说，对正规教育的定义大家都有差别呢，自然题目的说法就有问题了（我想这也就是你在第一段中的说法Different cultures have different situations, and education, especially formal education has diverse concepts rooted in nations.）
第三段的例子是很好的，我想了想也是可以用的，不过对此的说法要改一下了，不能着重于所谓的正规教育是反应了统治者的意志，而是要说虽然统治者罢黜了百家的学说，在正规的教育中只是讲儒家的学说，但是到今天，诸子百家的很多学说还是一代代被保留了下来（如道家、法家等等）即说明他们并没有被culture…discredit 也就是说明了a culture…perpetuate…and…discredit…并不是主要通过正规教育的，其它的学说显然是通过其他的途径保留下来的，因为他们是有价值的学说。

都是谈的一些我个人的看法，可能会有谬误的，也是拿出来大家讨论讨论吧。

禾日因心UID: 174510

你改得这么认真，感动ing，
一直在反复地看着分析，真是深受启发，也发觉 自己写的文章的确处于思维混乱中 ，抓错了关键词 呀:L
这里，也想听听charliehy关于 formal education 的理解，因为自己对此的定义的确狭隘了点。
另外，如果你写反对观点的话，会怎么论证自己呢

charliehyUID: 171503

我觉得对formal education的理解主要两个方，形式和内容。一种就是你所说的接受官方的教育,读该读的书，到官方指定的学校上学，从幼儿园、小学、中学、大学一步步走上来，这是从形式上来说。还有就是接受正统的思想。在一些黑暗时代（如中世纪的欧洲）人们的思想受到了禁锢，从形式上的formal学校中教授的当然是正统的宗教思想，但是文艺复兴的思想在现在看来更有价值，对现在西方各个方面的文化生活产生了巨大的影响。在现代西方的教育中文艺复兴思想是正统的思想。是不是可以这么说，虽然官方的教育一般是提供正统的思想，但是时代的不同对正统思想的看法不同，如果按照题目所说的“主要通过正规教育来……”，那么文艺复兴的思想显然不是通过这种去到传下来的。（从你的例子罢黜百家也可以看出来）
还有一些也就是你提到的在原始部落中根本也不存在我们所认为的那种正规教育，但是他们的传统照样流传了一代又一代。说句诡辩一点的话，或许也是我们对正规教育的形式有理解上的不同呢。（我们认为坐在教室里听听老师上课，就是formal了，那么在非洲的部落中举行的类似的仪式是不是一种他们看来是正规的宗教教育呢？）
你问到如果我写反对观点怎么来论证。（我肯定也会写反对观点的J，还没有写呢，看了你的文章很有些这个题目的冲动啊！）我想从我上面说的东西来看，能写的方面还是有很多的。不知道你是怎么看的呢？
对了，你是什么时候考AW呢？我是7月18日南京。大家可以互改作文啊，collaboration共同 promote啊J。

bonafide1978UID: 208070

我也是南京啊，不过八月底，刚交完钱。

禾日因心UID: 174510

昨天和 别人讨论了下，从广义和狭义来理解formal education，从广义上来说，这里的formal education 能不能理解为 traditional education,（这里我觉的可以不用正统教育而用传统教育来理解 好象有点偷换概念） 正如你所说的从西方文艺复兴时期注重人，肯定人的想法，到其宗教观念，从中国的儒家学说，到其他诸子百家，从原始部落教育，到family education ，甚至直到流行于今的占星术，易经，这些教育都可谓为对传统的继承
  当然，狭义的理解也就是官方指定教育
  和高兴能和你讨论，因为自己的想法有时候只是很cynical ,but not critical 所以想多听听大家的想法
我的作文是9月5号，昆明，现在正全力以赴准备中。
其实，今天一上来就看到你贴了一篇，本来就想好好的回改下，不过今天眼睛好疼，上了一会，撑不住就下了，真是不好意思呀，下回一定争取帮你改

sophywUID: 203712

104 "It is primarily through formal education that a culture tries to perpetuate ideas it favors and discredit the ideas it fears."               

   Is it real primarily through formal education that a culture tries perpetuate the ideas it favors and discredit the ideas it fears? To some extent, I can not agree with the author's assertion completely. Different cultures have different situations, and education, especially formal education has diverse concepts rooted in nations.(观点明确,表明下面要对formal education下定义)
   Firstly, what's the concept of "formal" education? Does it only mean that students should go to the schools which are formally approved by the government, and whose courses, even books  have to be credited by the education department? If the definition of the "formal education" is in this way, we would find that it's not the culture to perpetuate the ideas it favors or not, but a group of people in certain period utilize so-called "formal education" to enslave people's minds, to shape their view catering to their tastes, on purpose of consolidating their authority or reign(三个排比非常漂亮)

   More than two thousand years ago, in China, there appeared different thoughts flourishing in Zhangguo Period. People believed in their own favorite philosophy. However, until Han Dynasty, some scholars exerted their influential on the emperor to persuade him to authorize Confusion as the orthodox thoughts. Then other thoughts were announced illegal. Through this, it is not culture that try to perpetuate or discard something, but people in power who decide which favor or disfavor.(如果能把这种思想和教育的关系说出来就更好了)

   In addition, I take side on the author's assertion that through education, culture is passed down with certain propensity. But if it refers to "formal" one, I put the suspicion into it. As we know, like some tribes in the forest, such like the aboriginals, who are isolated by modern civilization, still remain their original educations. They use nature to instruct their progeny how to survive hunt prey, to go on their unique ritual. School is Greek to them, let alone the formal education .Formal education is not the primarily way for culture's tastes. Even today, family education is prevailing in the US. These children receive education at home, but the characteristic of their own culture still root in their minds.(这里对primary做出的批驳,但是只是针对formal education,如果能够在指出primary的批判就更好了,formal education还是做了作用的,但并非主要作用)

  Although education is closely relation to culture, whether the formal one is so principle for a culture to perpetuate the ideas it likes or discard its dislikes, and whether a culture tries to cater to its propensity through formal education, we still need more cautious consideration.

总体来说,这是一篇非常成功的作文,无论从语言上还是论点说明上,不过还有可以提高的空间,比如对于题目的关键词的把握,以及这些关键词之间的联系能说得更明白就很perfect了:D

看了大家的评论,相反,我觉得楼主这篇文章条里其实是非常清楚的,
第二三段实际再说formal education是否可以达到perpetuate ideas it favors and discredit the ideas it fears的作用,通过formal education的定义得出其实他只是一小部分人的追求和抛弃,只是这里没有把当权着的追求和文化联系起来有点缺点,因为这里问的是文化是否得到了抛弃和继承,并非人多人少

第四断对于题目的primary做了分析,是不是正统教育做了这个工作,但是没有突出"primary:是一个缺点,

这是我对这篇文章的看法,觉得如果关键词抓的再准点,结合起来谈,可能会更好

elvo1982UID: 203880

104 "It is primarily through formal education that a culture tries to perpetuate ideas it favors and discredit the ideas it fears."               

   Is it real primarily through formal education that a culture tries perpetuate the ideas it favors and discredit the ideas it fears? To some extent, I can not agree with the author's assertion completely. Different cultures have different situations, and education, especially formal education has diverse concepts rooted in nations.(简洁明确的开头，TS难道是最后一句？但是最后一句看起来更像是一个有支撑力的论据)

   Firstly, what's the concept of "formal" education? Does it only mean that students should go to the schools which are formally approved by the government, and whose courses, even books  have to be credited by the education department? If the definition of the "formal education" is( If defining “formal education” 好些？) in this way, we would find that it's not the culture to perpetuate the ideas it favors or not, but a group of people in certain period utilize so-called "formal education" to enslave people's minds, to shape their view catering to their tastes, on purpose of consolidating their authority or reign. ( 这段话是来说明什么的？)

   More than two thousand years ago, in China, there appeared different thoughts flourishing in Zhangguo Period. People believed in their own favorite philosophy. However, until Han Dynasty, some scholars exerted their influential(用名词形式？) on the emperor to persuade him to authorize Confusion as the orthodox thoughts. Then other thoughts were announced illegal. Through this(“In this case,” will be more logical), it is not culture that try(tries?) to perpetuate or discard something, but people in power who decide which favor or disfavor. (这段话是补充上一段的？)

   In addition, I take side on the author's assertion that through education, culture is passed down with certain propensity. But if it refers to "formal" one, I put the suspicion into it. As we know, like some tribes in the forest, such like the aboriginals, (逗号)who are isolated by(from?) modern civilization, still remain their original educations. They use nature to instruct their progeny how to survive hunt prey, to go on their unique ritual. School is Greek to them, let alone the formal education .Formal education is not the primarily way for culture's tastes. Even today, family education is prevailing in the US. These children receive education at home, but the characteristic of their own culture still root in their minds. (这段有主题：不一定在formal education下culture 的特征才能继承下来。但是与题目的意思相距有点远了吧~ )

  Although education is closely relation(related) to culture, whether the formal one is so(cross so will be better) principle for a culture to perpetuate the ideas it likes or discard its dislikes, and whether a culture tries to cater to its propensity through formal education, we still need more cautious consideration. (结尾要提出自己的观点亚~~不能说we still need more consideration吧)

和sophyw的观点有点不同，我觉得很大的问题是论证逻辑结构不是很好，段首段尾都没有明确提出自己支持什么，反对什么的。中间主体三段也没有顺着自己的主题句来展开，结构有点松散，论述了To some extent, I can not agree with the author's assertion completely.这句，但好像没有具体提出自己的观点

句型，用词很不错的说，学习中。。。。。



对这个题目里formal和education的意思，MW里（今天刚买。。。）是说：
formal: according with conventional forms and rules.
education: to develop mentally and morally.
(我是认为该取这两个意思，因为题目中出现了culture这个很有“意义”的词)

题目总的意思：一种文化主要是通过formal education来试图perpetuate它喜欢的ideas, discredit它害怕的ideas.

反对这个题目的话好像就只有一个着力点：1。一种文化并不是主要通过formal education来。。。。但是要提出自己主张的通过什么来perpetuate它喜欢的ideas, discredit它害怕的ideas.并证明好像有点难度。

个人感觉还是赞同的好。
粗想了下可分两点来说：

A.        一种文化中formal education的目的就是将本文化中前人留下的精神遗产传递给下一代。这是人类社会的特点之一。而这种精神遗产本身包含了前人遗留在这种文化中的思想倾向。例子可以编造些非洲什么地方的古代仪式......
B.        反对传统的人毕竟是少数，大多数人都将是在formal education的教育下长大的，不管是正确的思想还是错误的思想，一种文化都会把“自己”的喜好通过formal education灌输给大多数的人并且希望延续下去。例子可以是儒家的旧学堂,现在的政治课?(汗...)美国的民主自由思想?

大家来讨论下呀~~~
感觉会很难写。。。。。希望不要碰到这种题的好。。。。。继续汗。。。。。

staralwaysUID: 193479

"It is primarily through formal education that a culture tries to perpetuate ideas it favors and discredit the ideas it fears."

记得当时也写过这道题目，但是觉得写得不好，所以就没有发到版上来。我当时的思路，也勉强算一小点吧：题目是“it is primarily through formal education ...”，是个强调句型，那么就要注意primarily这个词了。除了formal education，还有没有其他的方式？这就是elvo1982所说的：

Originally posted by elvo1982 at 2005-5-14 01:37
一种文化并不是主要通过formal education来。。。。但是要提出自己主张的通过什么来perpetuate它喜欢的ideas, discredit它害怕的ideas.并证明好像有点难度。

我当时采取的是反对的立场。我把formal education理解成正规的学校教育，而教育除了学校教育之外，还是家庭教育、社区教育。因此若要反对的话，觉得可以从这个地方入手。

一点拙见，用来引玉，大家继续讨论啊！:lol

elvo1982UID: 203880

Originally posted by staralways at 2005-5-14 01:52
"It is primarily through formal education that a culture tries to perpetuate ideas it favors and discredit the ideas it fears."

我当时采取的是反对的立场。我把formal education理解成正规的学校教育，而教育除了学校教育之外，还是家庭教育、社区教育。因此若要反对的话，觉得可以从这个地方入手。

我还是有疑问:

如果理解成学校教育,那题目中只是说primarily,并没有说only,如果要说家庭教育,社区教育,或者其他方式的教育是primarily的话,我个人觉得还不如说学校教育是primarily的好~~:).

而且如果要考虑到以前没有学校的时候,那时候有没有formal education一说?一种culture是怎样传承的?

我是觉得古时候的宗教\部落的仪式也是一种formal education,现代只是把这种仪式系统化,科学化,平民化~加入了现代主流文化的特征:就成了学校.....:L

又想了一下,再整理了下我赞成的理由:

1.一种文化要想得到大多数人的接受,就必须通过教育来进行.这是人类社会的特征.

2.formal education是社会教育的主流,用的人多.不管现代还是古代.所以一种文化都把他当成primary way~.

不过觉得我的理由也不是很合逻辑,而且第一点有脱题之嫌.......只是感觉对我来说反对它更难写~~~

要睡觉了,明天再来讨论了~~~~~这题真难~~~版主help help啊~~~~~

elvo1982UID: 203880

差点忘了~
楼主及各位战友们有空帮拍拍~~

https://bbs.gter.net/viewthre ... type%26typeid%3D101

staralwaysUID: 193479

Originally posted by elvo1982 at 2005-5-14 02:28

我还是有疑问:

如果理解成学校教育,那题目中只是说primarily,并没有说only,如果要说家庭教育,社区教育,或者其他方式的教育是primarily的话,我个人觉得还不如说学校教育是primarily的好。

对，我的意思就是说学校教育并不是primarily的，强调其他两个的重要性。你采用赞成的立场当然也是可以的啊。

Originally posted by elvo1982 at 2005-5-14 02:28
而且如果要考虑到以前没有学校的时候,那时候有没有formal education一说?一种culture是怎样传承的?

我是觉得古时候的宗教\部落的仪式也是一种formal education,现代只是把这种仪式系统化,科学化,平民化~加入了现代主流文化的特征:就成了学校.....

没有学校的时期，可能要追溯到比较久远的年代了。我觉得有formal education这样说法的可能性极小，因为那时可能各个部落、各个民族都有自己传授文化的方式和方法；而到了后来，有了比较完整的国家之后，教育会渐渐地被提高到一个全国性的问题上来，这时候就需要有一些相应的制度来规范了，这时可能慢慢地就出现了formal education了。另外关于文化的传承，对于文化传统的了解、维持和发扬，觉得也是一个比较好的途径呢。

Originally posted by elvo1982 at 2005-5-14 02:28
不过觉得我的理由也不是很合逻辑,而且第一点有脱题之嫌。

我个人是比较favor这种写法的。:lol不过还是不能把重点放在这上面，可以写成一小段的引子。


可能的话，晚上我会到Google上去搜搜看有没有相关的资料。但各位的积极讨论才是最重要的。:$